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Obviously, you know nothing about Marquette and I find your observations very simplistic and wrong. Yes, UWM has a beautiful campus, and is in a desirable part of town. In fact, Shorewood is one of my favorite areas of Milwaukee. UWM has always been one of my favorite schools. But so what? I'm an MU grad, and an incredible transformation occurred while I attended that school. It was an extraordinary experience in an urban setting, one that I will never forget. Can't imagine a more enlightening, empowering experience for a college student. Incredible ambiance at MU and when I am in Milwaukee, the campus is home away from home. The spirit of my time at MU still sustains me today and I have lived in CA near Stanford for over 20 years. There were students at Marquette who were incredibly stuck up, but this didn't shield the fact that they were among the top high school students in the state. The black students are all extraordinary. Many students were from other states, other countries even. Poor blacks from the inner city passing through, bums on the street, the elderly, were all a part of the experience. The professors that I had were exceptional. When I graduated from my public high school in Milwaukee, most of the top ranking, top scoring students went to MU, some to UW. The second-tier students, those not in the top 10% went to UWM or other schools. Third and fourth tier went to MATC. We were all friends. There was no feeling of superiority on my part and no feeling of inferiority on theirs. Based on my experience at MU, there was no antagonism towards students from another institution of higher learning. I don't recall anyone downgrading UWM, just proud to be at Marquette. Ridiculous in your assertion that MU students slam UWM as a matter of course.
Marquette is a school of quiet quality, a Jesuit institution. It doesn't have to get in your face to tell you how enlightening the experiences and educational programs are. They just are. The only time UW was mentioned in opposition was the basketball rivalry. So I find your statements completely incorrect and you obviously are misinformed. You don't know what Marquette students "think." Absolutely absurd in your generalizations.
Alexus... you really don't make any sense, are you really even sure what you were trying to convey??? My knowlege about marquette is simple because when you get to the root of most things, it often is much simpler that people think. If you graduated from an MPS high school, I'm going to guess that you were an affirmative action admission? I graduated from Greendale, number 4 in my class, and Greendale is always ranked as a top 100 public high school in the USA. I easily was admitted to marquette, but chose UWM because all state schools offer free tuition to all students who place in the top 5% of their graduating class in WI. Also, I mixed with many marquette people and many times did I have to put them in their place. As I briefly touched on before, I had to painfully remind them that just because they had mommy and daddy spending $40,000 on them, it didn't mean that they were smarter than crap.
Greendale is one of the top 100 public high schools in America. Really? I would be interested in the source. I've seen the Newsweek and US News and World Report listings and Greendale has never been on any of these lists. The only school that ever makes these list from Wisconsin is Rufus King. How is it better than Homestead, Arrowhead, Shorewood, Whtiefish Bay, etc.. I don't see it. If your as smart as you claim to be you should realize that you need to back your statements with sources and facts. Also, what is with the condescending arrogant tone. I finished in the top 4 of my class (brag). I guess you were a affirmative action admission (put down). I put Marquette people in their place(arrogant) and last "mommy daddy spending $40,000 on them" (assumption and condescending). If you finished in the top four of your class I'm grateful I don't send my kids to the Greendale School system.
Last edited by Allan Trafton; 03-24-2010 at 10:05 AM..
First off, I proudly admit that I graduated from Greendale as well. I doubt it is one of the top 100 public schools in the country, but it is no question one of the finest there is. I believe when I graduated the average ACT score was like 24.2, '05. I finished in the top 20% of my class and well above that score on the ACT and couldn't get into Madison because like 22 some others from my school were already accepted (they have flexible caps per school so I am told). Also, those US News high school rankings are bunk, Minnesota and Wisconsin have some of the best schools nationwide (and best national testing averages) and their public schools are never on there...so pay no attention to the rankings...
On to the more relevant point....
I think a lot of people are over looking possibly the biggest difference between MU and UWM: the quality of the student. MU's ACT breakdown is something like 25-30 whereas UWM's in more like 20-25. Anyone with sense can tell that the culteral and academic makeup of each of these schools hinges on that. Does it cost more to come to MU? Yes. But not a lot more with financial aid. Fact is that many (not all) UWM students couldn't get accepted to MU. MU certainly carries a more conservative vibe than UWM, but it isn't overwhelming. Same with the whole "snobby" thing (many students are from affluent milwaukee and chicago suburbs, but once again, the students MU draws are focused on education first and the snobs are rare).
To the person that pointed out UWM is "harder to graduate from" and marquette is just "harder to get into": you have failed to read into the graduation rate statistic. UWM's graduate rate suffers primarily from a lower quality student base with less driven students. UWM has many students who didn't care about grades in HS and still don't in college and drop out. Its classes are likely not harder (I cannot be sure as I did not attend, but I did compare my business stats syllubus/tests at the U of Minnesota to a friend of mine at UWM's and his course/tests failed to teach nearly as much or test as rigorously). A colleges quality will always start with quality professors and quality students. Quality students results in HIGHER competition, which results in GREATER education. Until UWM enhances its student body by bumping up their crappy admissions standards, it will likely never surpass or even match MU's reputation. The fact is that going to UWM never even crossed my mind when I performed well in HS. I don't think it ever crossed the mind of anyone at my high school who had over a 3.5. The kids who went to UWM were mostly either the partiers/screw-offs, or those that didn't get into MU or UW and didn't want to go to a state school in the boonies. The cultural difference between the two stems from Student Body first and possibly the Jesuit/State school difference second. (that being said UWM has some pretty solid graduate programs, namely business and architecture.)
sorry for the long post...i usually only browse these boards during my downtime while at law school but this topic was interesting to me...
I think a lot of people are over looking possibly the biggest difference between MU and UWM: the quality of the student....
To the person that pointed out UWM is "harder to graduate from" and marquette is just "harder to get into": you have failed to read into the graduation rate statistic. UWM's graduate rate suffers primarily from a lower quality student base with less driven students. UWM has many students who didn't care about grades in HS and still don't in college and drop out.
I agree with these claims to an extent: Marquette is definitely a selective school, and UWM is generally not. However, it's important to take some other factors into consideration: (1) UWM's attrition rate is high. This is not just because many of the students are unmotivated; it's also because the high achievers that do exist help to set academic benchmarks, thus helping to weed out many underachievers; (2) UWM accepts a very large number of transfer students and non-traditionals, primarily at the upper division. This raises the stakes for all students involved, and helps to explain the variety and depth of courses offered at the upper division level (that, is, courses that could not really be offered if the system relied primarily on institutionally cultivated students); (3) some students who were underachievers in high school actually do become solid and competitive students in an environment such as UWM. Whether it be students who have matured a bit, or who finally see a purpose in education, or who have to earn and spend their own money in order to make education a reality, there is evidence that academic seriousness can take root in people who were not so serious as teenagers.
In some ways, the above is why I might say that UWM is harder to graduate from: the upper division generally has an academic culture that is markedly different from the lower division. For many UWM students, going from one level to the next (if they make it that far) is like entering a completely different university. At Marquette, the transition from one to the other is more seamless, less disjointed: the students in Year Two will very likely comprise the core of the student body the following year. Also, like many private schools, Marquette is expected to provide hands-on shepherding of its students: Marquette is a very tuition-driven institution with a strong retention philosophy. This doesn't mean the academics are poor; it just means that more intervention is done in order to keep students on track. There's a little bit of this at UWM, but it's not very significant; students are largely on their own.
Ultimately, my sense is that Marquette is a very good school from start to finish, whereas UWM's strength is the upper division and grad programs. Marquette's students come in with good preparation and drive, and they progress accordingly; UWM's students are more academically diverse, but they get weeded out, and this process may be a good character-building thing for some people. Marquette's students enter the university with high ACTs, but I bet the students who make it through UWM's upper division have similarly high test scores overall. I have seen syllabi in different fields from both schools, and both have their share of rigorous as well as fluffy courses.
But unfortunately, as nice as it is to parse details about both schools, neither has the academic reputation of the nation's great colleges and universities. Perhaps for some students at MU and UWM, the education they're getting is just as good as anywhere else, but for many students, that's just not the case. But does that mean they're bad schools? Of course not. It just means that they both have a long way to go in order to earn big-time bragging rights.
As a current junior at Marquette, I feel I should chime in.
Freshman, sophomore, and junior year I've been sent editorials from UWM newspapers comparing MU to UWM students. They sneer in their emails, "Man, you're paying way too much for your education, it's funny how we're really the smarter ones". The editorials paint MU students as rich, white snobs who got in under daddy's dollar, and UWM students as the struggling working class student tugging on his or her own bootstraps. And yet, I've never seen a single article in the Marquette Tribune comparing MU and UWM. Why, do you ask?
Simply because, and I think I speak for all of Marquette here, frankly, WE DON'T CARE ABOUT UWM. It's not meant as an insult. In the same manner, we don't care about Carthage. Nor St. Norbert's, Lawrence, UW-GB, and every other school in Wisconsin (besides UW). Simply put, I feel like no rivalry will exist, nor will one ever exist (besides proximity). Academically, culturally, athletically, and so many other factors prevent any worthwhile comparisons between the schools. If you want to go look at what MU does in sports in comparison to UWM, look at the traditions and the standings from these past few seasons. If you want to compare Marquette's academic reputation against UWM's, go look at the rankings. Again, we don't care--I don't care. I know where Marquette stands and I don't compare it to UWM. And yet, I feel like UWM has become our jealous little brother, poking and poking and poking at us, but we're really quite indifferent. It's like UWM is trying to start a fight with us, but let's face it--it's never going to happen.
Rather than refute or confirm what has been said, I'll try to describe MU culture. Snobby? Hardly. The dorms at Marquette (especially McCormick) are tiny and old. Students carry no shame at taking their fake IDs in search of deals at dive bars with sticky floors and ancient karaoke equipment. My activities of choice on a Saturday after a giant hangover still consist of a giant Sobelman's burger, a great Marquette b-ball win, a walk down to the lake, and another night of drunken debauchery. Students dress nothing out of the ordinary--I see a lot of professional clothing because I'm in the business hall all day, but I've seen everything from pajamas to basketball shorts. Most importantly, I have only seen Marquette students be welcoming, kind, and willing to show anyone and everyone a good time, even our "rival" UWM students. Above that, Marquette students pack the library on weekdays--often on weekends. But I'd describe the typical MU students as a study-hard play-hard type.
UWM has some great academic programs. I love the location of the school. The students that I have met are fantastic, down to earth individuals. Other than that, I do not know much about the school other than the one basketball game we play every year.
One argument that I want to address is that of the "difficulty" in graduating from UWM, as if turning a lack of guidance from the school's advisers is a good builder of character. Let's be fair, here, if you want character--go into the military. This is a dumb argument. MU does not hold our hand, they expect us to stay on track and are hardly sympathetic if you miss a deadline or a class, but yes, MU's advising program is very good from what I have experienced.
All of this being said, I love Marquette. The campus as a whole just has this unifying aura around it. I don't want to paint MU as Disneyworld, but the Catholic, Jesuit, service-focused, holistic education really binds students together. If anyone has any specific questions about MU I'd be happy to answer them, but other than that--UWM, please stop writing editorials saying we are snobby and stupid for paying $30k for an education. Come experience our campus and our culture before you make that decision.
One argument that I want to address is that of the "difficulty" in graduating from UWM, as if turning a lack of guidance from the school's advisers is a good builder of character. Let's be fair, here, if you want character--go into the military. This is a dumb argument. MU does not hold our hand, they expect us to stay on track and are hardly sympathetic if you miss a deadline or a class, but yes, MU's advising program is very good from what I have experienced.
That comment was actually an aside, so it's not integral to the argument. But in any case, I don't think it's a stretch to claim that students are more likely to slip through the cracks at UWM; in fact, many students choose a place like UWM so they can be anonymous and independent. It's a built-in part of the culture of most large, public schools. And it's not that MU plays the "in loco parentis" thing to an extreme, but I doubt many students there get lost in the shuffle. MU has more of a traditional sense of community than UWM; that leads to social networks and interactions (advisors, coaches, faculty sponsors, dorm leaders, clergy, etc.) that make it tough for MU students to remain detached and unnoticed for too long. And it isn't just a matter of administrators making sure that they're delivering on their promises to the students and their parents; socialization is at work, too. Many UWM students walk across campus on a daily basis without running into people they know; I doubt that could be said at the same level for MU students. This is important because students tend to do better academically when they feel connected and committed to a place.
In any event, I haven't noticed so much interest at UWM regarding rivalries with MU; the concern seems to be more with UW-Madison. But if UWM seems like it's trying to "start something" with MU, I find it interesting that MU's response (as you represent it) is basically non-responsive; perhaps that only reinforces MU's image as a "citadel on a hill" kind of place.
In any event, I haven't noticed so much interest at UWM regarding rivalries with MU; the concern seems to be more with UW-Madison. But if UWM seems like it's trying to "start something" with MU, I find it interesting that MU's response (as you represent it) is basically non-responsive; perhaps that only reinforces MU's image as a "citadel on a hill" kind of place.
And yet, with the Jesuit tradition of putting educational organizations in the middle of poverty-stricken areas, in order to encourage community and service, why would one ever consider Marquette a "citadel on a hill"? Certainly Marquette engages the community with events such as Hunger Clean-Up where over 3000+ MU students do community service for a portion of the day. And why would Marquette "need" a response, as you're asking for? The academic reputation of Marquette is out there for the public to see in many rankings. Unfortunately, I do not know UWM's reputation as they do not appear in any of the rankings I have looked at. As for athletics, Marquette placed in the top 5 of the best conference in the NCAA and made the tourney. Speaks for itself. Marquette has gotten many awards and accolades for service to the community--google "Marquette College with a Conscience". Point being, Marquette does not need any kind of public or obvious response. It would be like if my 5 year old brother started punching me--would I really need to punch him back? I don't mean to be pretentious, I am just responding to your comment.
Also, if you don't see UWM trying to start a rivalry, you must be blind. UWM pushed and pushed to play Marquette in non-conference basketball, while Marquette athletic directors were indifferent about it. UWM even required Marquette to sign some sort of "mercy rule" where Marquette wouldn't shoot 3's or press when they were up 20 points. Standard practice, sure, but to put it in contract? Marquette does not need to play UWM, UWM needs to play Marquette. Here's a link:
Regarding an academic rivalry, as I said before, there is none. However like the above posters have made clear, UWM students seem to make baseless claims that UWM has a better educational foundation than Marquette does. These UWM publications have made a degree to be more about a piece of paper than an person's holistic education that impacts them for life. And therefore, since a UWM degree costs less, it is somehow better. As if I were a fan of a team winning 49-0 and an opposing fan insulted me, I would simply point to the scoreboard. In the same manner, if you make baseless claims that your school has a better educational foundation, I will simply point to the rankings.
Alexus... you really don't make any sense, are you really even sure what you were trying to convey??? My knowlege about marquette is simple because when you get to the root of most things, it often is much simpler that people think. If you graduated from an MPS high school, I'm going to guess that you were an affirmative action admission? I graduated from Greendale, number 4 in my class, and Greendale is always ranked as a top 100 public high school in the USA. I easily was admitted to marquette, but chose UWM because all state schools offer free tuition to all students who place in the top 5% of their graduating class in WI. Also, I mixed with many marquette people and many times did I have to put them in their place. As I briefly touched on before, I had to painfully remind them that just because they had mommy and daddy spending $40,000 on them, it didn't mean that they were smarter than crap.
My message is clear, but I suppose it makes you feel inadequate. I can't really take you seriously. You know nothing about Marquette because you didn't attend the school. You make some very backwards assumptions about graduates from MPS schools, implying that the only way they could get into Marquette is through an affirmative action program. You know nothing about me, assuming that I did not have the credentials you had when I applied to college. You further find it necessary to emphasize what your HS class ranking was, and make it known that you were "easily" admitted into Marquette, but chose to go to UWM. Does this make you "smarter than crap?" Frankly I don't care where you went to school. You didn't attend Marquette and have absolutely no credibility when discussing the school. If the path you took has allowed you to live in the manner that you desire, then you should not feel threatened by any Marquette graduate or student who bestows the virtues of their experiences at that fine university.
So you continue to put those Marquette people "in their place." In the meantime, as a graduate of that great school, I will continue to reap the rewards from that extraordinary experience. I certainly don't care one bit whether you can appreciate that or not.
Last edited by LexusNexus; 04-04-2010 at 06:56 AM..
Alexus... you really don't make any sense, are you really even sure what you were trying to convey??? My knowlege about marquette is simple because when you get to the root of most things, it often is much simpler that people think. If you graduated from an MPS high school, I'm going to guess that you were an affirmative action admission? I graduated from Greendale, number 4 in my class, and Greendale is always ranked as a top 100 public high school in the USA. I easily was admitted to marquette, but chose UWM because all state schools offer free tuition to all students who place in the top 5% of their graduating class in WI. Also, I mixed with many marquette people and many times did I have to put them in their place. As I briefly touched on before, I had to painfully remind them that just because they had mommy and daddy spending $40,000 on them, it didn't mean that they were smarter than crap.
Funny, at the firm I am currently interning at, we just interviewed a current UWM student. He bragged that he was accepted to Marquette, Madison, and Minnesota, but he said he made the "smart decision" and went with UWM for financial reasons (yet the guy was carrying a Dior bag?). The candidate was not hired, according to my manager based on "past track record of poor decision making and downright stupidity". I think that speaks volumes.
Funny, at the firm I am currently interning at, we just interviewed a current UWM student. He bragged that he was accepted to Marquette, Madison, and Minnesota, but he said he made the "smart decision" and went with UWM for financial reasons (yet the guy was carrying a Dior bag?). The candidate was not hired, according to my manager based on "past track record of poor decision making and downright stupidity". I think that speaks volumes.
It sounds to me that you and this anonymous UWM alum are making the mistake of assuming that gaining admission to "prestigious" colleges somehow equates to common sense.
Fact is, both UWM and MU have a handful of programs that rank amongst the best in the country. But outside of those, there's not much of a difference... at least not in the eyes of employers. Yet it doesn't stop many MU alums from feeling entitled to a better life than their UWM (and even UW-Madison) counterparts simply because they paid more for their sheepskin.
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