Will Minneapolis ever see 500,000 again? (St. Paul, Corcoran: how much, transfer to, costs)

[gearedtowardssalad]

If and when the economy comes back to life, I expect to see a very steady increase in population for the city.

[Cruz Azul Guy]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

My grandparents both lived in the northside; no one in the extended family still lives there, but when they did start moving out it was to a variety of places: nearby suburbs like New Hope, Medicine Lake, and Robbinsdale, other Minneapolis neighborhoods (including Uptown, which is why my parents ended up moving there; they were familiar with it from visiting family), and Richfield.

Yeah my parents both lived their childhood in Northeast and South Minneapolis respectively before my grandparents moved them out to the suburbs in the 1960's.

[west336]

Originally Posted by gearedtowardssalad

If and when the economy comes back to life, I expect to see a very steady increase in population for the city.

Curious why you think so? I tend to agree at first, but I also see a prolonged recession giving people the incentive to move closer to the core and cut down on some of the extra flack in general cost of living.

[west336]

Originally Posted by Slig

Yeah my parents both lived their childhood in Northeast and South Minneapolis respectively before my grandparents moved them out to the suburbs in the 1960's.

My family is from the Chicago area and white flight was very prevalent therre, and even they participated in a degree, moving from the Westside of Chicago, to Berkely/Berwyn/Melrose Park/Maywood, to Schaumburg, Elgin, Villa Park and Geneva. Further and further and further away from city problems, decade by decade.

[Ben Around]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

As I believe I noted out in an earlier post on this thread (don't know- might have been another thread)- there was white flight in the 60s leading up to and after the 67 riots on the northside, particularly notable in the Jewish community but I'm sure there were plenty of other whites fleeing as well. The Willard Homewood's historical roots are that of a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, and you will find that many of those families you reference in St. Louis Park (and Golden Valley and other West Metro suburban areas) have family ties/roots to the Northside- see graphs below from the same city website showing that there was already a well-established predominantly black population in the Willard-Hay and Near-North neighborhoods in 1980. Of note- I recently heard a member of a prominent Jewish family here in the metro give a speech on his family's Northside roots and successive flight to the suburbs, but then went on to make the statement "but we're starting to come back". I also don't know how many times I've met baby boomers from St. Louis Park at a wedding or other function that, upon hearing of our Northside address, proceed to tell me about their family's history on the Northside or the northside intersection of the home they grew up in.

I don't think it's fair to describe all movement to the burbs as "white flight". People moved to the burbs for a variety of reasons, many of them had nothing to do with race. Many just bought into the prevailing thought that big yards, newer houses with multiple bathrooms and commuting by car was "progress", upward mobility, the American Dream, etc. Race wasn't a consideration.

[WriterDude]

Originally Posted by Kid Cann

So maybe it's a better question - Will MPLS hit 400,000 before STP hits 300,000?

I might be the only one who read this and imagined "dueling banjos"...

And I know that I'm a rookie when it comes to MPLS... But I think quality of life would be dramatically improved by encouraging development that anchors people in some way. Otherwise, there's an inevitable flow of people out of the area once they've earned their expensive degree from UM. You don't want to build high-rises without an infrastructure, or you crater the housing market when those places sell out to speculators or people who don't have stable work (like Miami).

The University of Minnesota is a world-class school; why not build another one, and link the two campuses with high-speed light rail lines? Assist the development funding by hitting up UM alums to have buildings named after them in exchange for construction money. Minneapolis needs to think big, and think thirty years from now, not think small, or plan three years in advance.

If there's a surplus of something in the area, why not build things that take advantage of it? For example, cloud computing servers require a lot of energy to cool; why not create tax advantages or zoning advantages to encourage the Apples and Googles of the world to position server farms in the area? Are those advantages already in place? Why not build nuclear plants and make the area a net exporter to the national grid?

Or show off the human factor. Take a lesson from the Research Triangle area and talk up the high-quality and incredibly educated workforce in the Twin Cities area? Make up some catchy term that's like "Silicon Valley" or "Research Triangle"... (Proof I'm not in marketing for Hennepin County... I have no idea what I'd call it...)

[audadvnc]

Originally Posted by WriterDude

The University of Minnesota is a world-class school; why not build another one, and link the two campuses with high-speed light rail lines?

Oh, you mean like the Minneapolis and St Paul campuses? That are already linked with dedicated bus lines?

For example, cloud computing servers require a lot of energy to cool; why not create tax advantages or zoning advantages to encourage the Apples and Googles of the world to position server farms in the area? Are those advantages already in place

There's the Minnesota Supercomputing Center - does that count?

Why not build nuclear plants and make the area a net exporter to the national grid?

There are a couple of nuke plants in Minnesota already - a couple more than we should have, in my opinion. Besides, the "net exporter to the national grid" scenario brings back the ghost of Enron and its calculus of fraud - again, something I would gladly live without.

Take a lesson from the Research Triangle area and talk up the high-quality and incredibly educated workforce in the Twin Cities area? Make up some catchy term that's like "Silicon Valley" or "Research Triangle"...

Back in the day they called it Energy Center Drive when the Control Data supercomputing business was still running - matter of fact they still call the street by that name. It's right near the State Fair, south of Como.

You've got a bunch of great ideas that have already been implemented and either succeeded or failed over the years.

[WriterDude]

Originally Posted by audadvnc

Oh, you mean like the Minneapolis and St Paul campuses? That are already linked with dedicated bus lines?

Well, yeah, although I was thinking more about something that would be modern, efficient, and weatherproof. Buses aren't efficient enough, and are subject to weather and traffic.

When I say "light rail," I don't mean anything like the Chicago elevated trains, which strike me as a noisy eyesore. They're efficient and beloved by Chicagoans, so I'm not trying to be negative here, but they're not my favorite concept for urban mass transit.

Originally Posted by audadvnc

There's the Minnesota Supercomputing Center - does that count?

That's exactly the model I was using. I was just thinking that a modern investment in technology infrastructure would benefit everyone. Your link helps to illustrate that point - the MSC (which seems to have been renamed to the Minnesota Supercomputing Institute?) was once way up on the top 500 supercomputing sites. Now, it's not even in the top 500.

At the same time, Oak Ridge National Laboratories, the University of Tennessee's National Institute for Computational Sciences, NASA/Ames Research Center, the Lawrence Livermore National Labs, and the Sandia National Laboratories/National Renewable Energy Laboratory are all within the top 10. June 2010 | TOP500 Supercomputing Sites.

The TC area has advantages over places like Sandia, Livermore, or Sunnyvale.

Originally Posted by audadvnc

There are a couple of nuke plants in Minnesota already - a couple more than we should have, in my opinion. Besides, the "net exporter to the national grid" scenario brings back the ghost of Enron and its calculus of fraud - again, something I would gladly live without.

Enron was a structural fraud wrapped around an energy company, not the model I had in mind. Besides, low-greenhouse energy isn't such a bad thing.

Originally Posted by audadvnc

Back in the day they called it Energy Center Drive when the Control Data supercomputing business was still running - matter of fact they still call the street by that name. It's right near the State Fair, south of Como.

So how about the MTC - the Minneapolis Technology Center. The marketing types could call it The Tech. (And the cynical types can pronounce it "Empty-C." Win-win.)

I think another important thing here would be a whole set of favorable zoning and tax ordinances that would encourage things like suburban return and corporate/private relocation from other metro areas.

Originally Posted by audadvnc

You've got a bunch of great ideas that have already been implemented and either succeeded or failed over the years.

Thanks! Clearly I have a lot to learn about the Twin Cities area, but I'm starting from a constructive place.

[bropers]

DISCLAIMER: I don't subscribe to this forum and only found it thanks to a Google Alert I have setup for my organization. I felt I needed to respond to some of the comments, though.

Originally Posted by WriterDude

When I say "light rail," I don't mean anything like the Chicago elevated trains, which strike me as a noisy eyesore. They're efficient and beloved by Chicagoans, so I'm not trying to be negative here, but they're not my favorite concept for urban mass transit.

Perhaps you're thinking of [URL=http://www.metrocouncil.org/transportation/ccorridor/centralcorridor.asp]the new light rail[/URL] that is being installed between downtown Minneapolis, running [URL=http://lightrail.umn.edu/]through the UofM[/URL], and on to downtown Saint Paul.

Originally Posted by WriterDude

That's exactly the model I was using. I was just thinking that a modern investment in technology infrastructure would benefit everyone. Your link helps to illustrate that point - the MSC (which seems to have been renamed to the Minnesota Supercomputing Institute?) was once way up on the top 500 supercomputing sites. Now, it's not even in the top 500.

I'm a Director (http://www.msi.umn.edu/about/people/sysopstaff.html - broken link) at [URL=http://www.msi.umn.edu/]MSI[/URL] (which has been historically connected to the MSC you discovered) and we are in the Top500 now, as well as plenty in the past, we're just listed under two (http://www.top500.org/site/history/1961 - broken link) different (http://www.top500.org/site/history/1960 - broken link) entries (something I've asked to have fixed).

Originally Posted by WriterDude

At the same time, Oak Ridge National Laboratories, the University of Tennessee's National Institute for Computational Sciences, NASA/Ames Research Center, the Lawrence Livermore National Labs, and the Sandia National Laboratories/National Renewable Energy Laboratory are all within the top 10. [url=http://www.top500.org/lists/2010/06]June 2010 | TOP500 Supercomputing Sites[/url].

Getting in the top 10 is a costly task: you either have a large government grant or you pay for a single entry, since you won't be able to afford it again for a looong time. Consistently being in the top 100 to 250 shows a solid annual commitment to running modern systems and is far more reasonable in terms of cost.

[WriterDude]

Originally Posted by bropers

Perhaps you're thinking of the new light rail that is being installed between downtown Minneapolis, running through the UofM, and on to downtown Saint Paul.

Yes, that's the foundation for a light rail system. For my money, though, the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) system in the San Francisco Bay Area might be a better model. BART

The reason I say that is the distributed nature of the Twin Cities metro area. In the Bay Area, BART runs all the way from San Francisco across the Bay to Oakland and the east bay suburbs, as well as service down to the San Francisco Airport and up to the northeast Bay Area. In the Twin Cities, because of the significantly lower cost of land and the relatively short runs, a system like BART would be huge. It's also a green system, running on electricity.

There's a parallel regional transit system in the Bay Area called CalTrain, which runs conventional trains from San Francisco to San Jose. (They were planning to make it electric a few years back, but I don't know if they completed that conversion.)

Originally Posted by bropers

I'm a Director (http://www.msi.umn.edu/about/people/sysopstaff.html - broken link) at MSI (which has been historically connected to the MSC you discovered) and we are in the Top500 now, as well as plenty in the past, we're just listed under two (http://www.top500.org/site/history/1961 - broken link) different (http://www.top500.org/site/history/1960 - broken link) entries (something I've asked to have fixed).

That's very cool! Congratulations on the listing. I'm sorry for not catching that myself.

However, that doesn't address the point I was raising about building cloud computing centers or enhancing the tech infrastructure. Do you think the Minneapolis/St. Paul area would benefit from something like that?