relocating from Chicago - Looking at Phillips/Powderhorn/Whittier? (Minneapolis: condos, crime rate)

[Cruz Azul Guy]

Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat

I just went into such detail about Powderhorn because it's where I lived, so I figured I could give you a good roundup. I, like uptown, do think that Whittier is probably a better fit for someone who likes doing stuff. Powderhorn just doesn't get enough love, and there are way more young and hip people living there than people think, like me formerly .

It is worth noting that Whittier along with the Lyndale neighborhood are actually part of the Powderhorn community even though most people don't tend to associate the two since the majority of Powderhorn is on the east side of 35W. We also live in Powderhorn and like it alot. I'm not very familiar with the Bucktown/Logan Square/Lincoln Square area of Chicago but from what I understand that area more resembles the uptown area of Minneapolis. If you're looking in Powderhorn the Whittier and Lyndale neighborhoods would probably be the closest fit. I'm very fond of the other Powderhorn neighborhoods and also have alot of respect for Phillips but both areas have less commercial activity and aren't as dense as Lyndale and Whittier.

I agree with the hip factor of Powderhorn though. It is surprising how many neighbors we have in their 20's and 30's.

[acmanlee]

that sounds great. I was looking at Powderhorn in it's proximity to the park and to the midtown market. are there any particular streets I should look into? I will do an apartment hunting trip soon, any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

Originally Posted by acmanlee

that sounds great. I was looking at Powderhorn in it's proximity to the park and to the midtown market. are there any particular streets I should look into? I will do an apartment hunting trip soon, any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

The streets that have the most traffic noise would be Lake Street, 31st Street, Chicago Avenue, Bloomington Avenue, and 38th Street. I lived within earshot of 31st Street, and if I had it to do over again, I might not live there, because there were lots of loud cars. People tend to use 31st to make better time than on Lake Street, I think, and be loud. It can get old. On the other hand, I wanted to have an easy walk to Lake Street, the Market, and stuff, so it's just part of the trade off. But really, even down on 32nd things get quieter on the car front.

Despite the aesthetics of it, you might not want to live right on the park. There is occasionally some crime there at night, and the way the park is set up, it lends itself to it - it's below street level in a valley, with winding paths and stuff. During the summer, there are things like sports and movies in the park, which bring people in, but you might not want it right outside your window.

A lot of the crime (which actually is often significantly less than Whittier in any given month, despite the worse reputation from many. although this can probably be attributed to less late night street life) is centered on Lake Street, 31st Street, and in the park itself. It's still not that bad, and if you've lived in Chicago and Philly you'll probably have the same conclusions.

Other than that....it's got a block by block thing going on as to how nice each block looks, which depends a lot on homeowners and landlords on any given block. There are more nice blocks south of 31st, but it's not a rule, as I personally think the stretch of 12th Avenue from Lake Street down to and around the park had some really nice properties, including very large houses (some of which are apartment buildings) and brownstones.

Like everywhere in Minneapolis, there are some pretty bleak modernist cube-like apartment buildings thrown around, which really detract from the character of the neighborhood, and tend to not be taken care of as well, and are more likely to have annoying things like loud music coming out of them. On the other hand, lots of them are just ugly because that's how they were architecturally envisioned, and there's nothing wrong with the people who live inside of them, obviously.

Google earth is your friend as much as perspectives from residents though, in attempting to get a feel of certain blocks before you visit. If you're looking to rent, you can typically find a really good deal in the brownstones (from ads that I saw...I had a problem neighbor in my building, and looked around the neighborhood a little for something else, although I wound up staying put until I moved to Philly). Or, you can find a lot of really nice, big apartments in duplexes and triplexes for a little more, but still less than other areas of Minneapolis. I don't know if you're looking to rent or buy though, so that might be a moot point.

Other than that, just the other caveat that others said: I'm just going into Powderhorn since I lived there. You could find Whittier more to your tastes.

It is worth noting that Whittier along with the Lyndale neighborhood are actually part of the Powderhorn community even though most people don't tend to associate the two since the majority of Powderhorn is on the east side of 35W.

True. People tend to associate those neighborhoods more with Uptown, to the point that I knew people who lived in Lyndale who thought they lived in Uptown, and thought that Powderhorn "sucked." To which I would shock them by saying: "You live in Powderhorn, and not only do you live in Powderhorn, but you live in a part of Powderhorn that often has more crime than the Powderhorn Park neighborhood itself." And they'd be shocked and amazed.

[uptown_urbanist]

The "community" thing doesn't really mean much -- I don't know the history, but I don't think they fit modern Minneapolis particularly well. Many people consider much of both Lyndale and Whittier to be part of the greater Uptown area. That sphere of influence has shifted slightly as Lyn-Lake itself has become well-known in its own right, but that just furthers the distinction between the areas east and west of 35W. In any case, I think they're pretty pointless.

I do like parts of the Powderhorn area (but do NOT consider Whittier or Lyndale to be "Powderhorn," regardless of some random city designated community area), but my personal preference is for Whittier. It feels busier and bustling and I think there's a greater amount and variety of businesses within easy walking distance. And much as I love the Midtown market, it's no Reading Terminal Market -- yet. On the other hand, the slightly more laid-back quality of the Powderhorn neighborhoods are presumably what make them so appealing to many people. They're quieter, less dense, but still have things within walking distance and decent bus options.

I agree that 31st Street is often busier and louder than Lake (at least in a different, more car-oriented way); that's true west of 35W (in Lyndale), too.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

Yeah, Uptown, I agree that the Community thing is sort of an historical oddity.

Funny thing about the Midtown Global Market is that I got so used to it being really busy but in that laid back Midwest kind of way, that I feel like the Reading Terminal Market is almost too crowded and hectic. Really, you can't even go there planning to find a seat. Not that I don't go there anyway once in a while, but yeah. I guess the Midtown Global Market is busy for lunch with the hospital, but me and my wife used to go there for dinner and could usually find a seat, which was nice.

[Min-Chi-Cbus]

Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat

I don't know if it was uncomfortably small. The thing that troubled me the most about it was that so many "neighborhoods" really didn't seem that self-sustaining. What I mean by that is that you have to go somewhere outside of walking distance to do certain normal human activities, other than the obvious work and entertainment (sports, movies, theaters...) that tend to be centered in certain places labeled Central Business Districts. Don't get me wrong, there are neighborhoods like that in Minneapolis. I'm not talking about Uptown, which is a destination as much as a neighborhood. I mean like the way that Linden Hills has its own Commercial District. It's just that, really even in some pretty run down, poor neighborhoods in Philadelphia, people are within walking distance to legitimate mom and pop stores, restaurants, retail...even if they tend to be crappy places. Almost every neighborhood, no matter who lives there, has a commercial corridor, or at least a working shell of a former commercial corridor that people can easily get to (exception can be made for places that were destroyed by/depressed after race riots in the 60's, which included chunks of North Philly).

Now, after my years in Minneapolis, my opinion (take it for what it is, an opinion) is that most Midwestern cities in general don't have as many of these because 1) population density is lower, meaning neighborhoods just can't support as many businesses. Population density in MPLS is half that of Philly (even with all of the vacant lots in North Philly and subdivisions within city limits in the Far Northeast...many neighborhoods are significantly more than twice as dense), which theoretically means half as many customers within walking distance. 2) Commercial corridors were developed in the Twin Cities primarily by streetcar lines. The streetcars no longer exist, making some of these corridors obsolete, and others just toned down from their former selves. 3) The car plays much more into the history of the Midwest. Cars have been normal in Minneapolis for...well over half of its history, correct? Which means the walking distance idea of neighborhoods was never *that* important to its development. As opposed to neighborhoods going back to the 19th, 18th, 17th century.

That's the thing that struck me as weird. I really don't know Chicago too well, I've only been Downtown and near Downtown there, so perhaps Minneapolis and Chicago have enough in common that it actually won't be different to him? It's nothing bad or personal against the city, it just is the way that it is - it comes more from me not really seeing that much of America before moving to Minneapolis. I began to appreciate how good Minneapolis actually is after seeing a little more of America, although I still do prefer my East Coast.

Your analysis about MPLS neighborhoods is spot in, IMO! And don't get me wrong, I truly do not take it personally if you a.) don't like it here, or b.) prefer to live somewhere else. What I wanted to know is if someone from a "big" city could comfortably live here without feeling some significant culture shock or discomfort.

[Min-Chi-Cbus]

Originally Posted by sendij1

its a gem, yes, but the weather sucks. Nice weather and this would be a hugely popular area.

The weather makes it difficult for people looking for a "quick fix" or the "next best thiing" to move here, which is actually okay with me, since they usually have the least amount of locational pride and have the least to offer the area. But I do agree that sometimes the weather truly sucks, but where in America can you live where the weather never sucks? Personally, I find the end of December through the beginning of February to be the two most uncomfortable months, but everything else is just find by me and very liveable, IMO.

[uptown_urbanist]

I grew up here, but I'll comment on the smaller city thing: I've had some trouble adjusting back to Minneapolis after living elsewhere. There are certainly urban neighborhoods, but there just aren't as many of them. And the culture, overall, is more smaller city in feel. People seem to believe that free, plentiful parking is an entitlement, the car is still king, and there's a tendency here for people to look down on renters. On the plus side, it still offers a lot of big city amenities, but at a much lower price tag than what you'd pay elsewhere. And for anyone with kids, it's a real relief to have access to decent public schools in the city without having to go through very stressful magnet lottery applications, etc. There are very few neighborhoods in Minneapolis where I can envision living in the long-run. Uptown/Lyn-Lake is one of them, along with parts of NE/Marcy-Holmes. Some of the neighborhoods downtown have potential for the future, but right now they just don't offer as many amenities as I want within walking distance. There are definitely some big pluses to counteract that, but I wish that Minneapolis was denser, had a more vibrant street scene, and, most difficult for me to really articulate, I wish there were more people living here who WANTED all of that. Or at least that those who envision a quieter city wouldn't move to our few existing very urban neighborhood options and then complain when they can't find a parking spot.

[Min-Chi-Cbus]

^I hear that!

[lalife]

Originally Posted by acmanlee

I'm relocating from Chicago to work for GenMills in Golden Valley. I'd like an urban neighborhood and read up on the midtown global market.
Any suggestions on neighborhoods to live in? If you're familiar with Chicagoland, I'm looking at something similar to Lincoln Square, Logan Square, Bucktown-ish.

I'd like to be able to walk around and hit up the local watering holes for sports and the like, places with coffeeshops and where I can chill with my neighbors after a day of work.

Ideally, I'd like to be in a mixed socio-economic area as well, where I can get good ethnic foods and grocery stores.

Thanks in advance for your help!

You scored a job at General Mills, therefore why would you want to live in rougher neighborhoods. Hmm? Sure the Global Market is a really cool place, but not sure about living in the Phillips neighborhood. Anyway, there are many areas in Minneapolis that could fit your needs. Maybe even closer to Uptown and then you can easily go over to the Global Market. Hey, they have condos above the Global Market. Ever consider that?