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Target (or similar)
Bookstore
Foodcourt
Hardware store (Ace/Truevalue/etc)
Shoe store
Modest-sized grocery store, or even a nice co-op
Drugstore
Petstore (I don't need any pets, but its fun to watch my daughter go nuts over the puppies)
But then, developers don't really base their building plans around people who want to get their shopping done as soon as possible and move on
That's not too far off of Northtown:
In mall is a food court, shoe stores, and a pet store. With a shared parking lot and sidewalk for the purpose of walking between is a Home Depot. Other end of mall has a Cub that is pretty much in the parking lot. There's a local road to cross to get to a Barnes&Noble and Walgreens. You would have to cross a non-mall road to get to either Target or Walmart or K-mart (those are crazy intersections though for cars and pedestrians alike).
Northtown also has a Best Buy, L.A. Fitness, and (alternative) school.
Har Mar might also come reasonably close. I don't think it has a pet store or drug store. And Target is across the street. There's no food court, but there are a fair number of restaurants.
Burnsville Center has all of that right near there but not all connected to the mall. Target is across the street, pet store down the road. They used to have a pet store in the mall but that closed down a while back.
Actually, the mall in St. Cloud might have most of that-with Target being the "grocery" store. Not sure if they have a pet store there any more though. Kind of a hike to get there though.
It may be a loan, but it is an interest free loan. Therefore, the "grant" is in the form of waiving the interest a bank or private loan would ask. Admittedly, if I were Simon and had a bank loaning at interest or a interest-free loan from the City, obviously I would be tempted to take what is essentially a form of handout. Also, what about the costs of originating the loan? Is Simon covering those costs or is that being absorbed by the City? If the City, obviously there is another grant. Finally, what is the collateral or guarantee if Simon defaults, or will the taxpayers of Edina just be on the hook? Worse yet, what if Simon defaults and Edina starts looking for a handout or aid from the State? Then we all pay for Simon's default.
We also have to come to the realization that funds allocated to a Southdale project means less funds for other needs and functions of government, so to UU - I respectfully question the seeming suggestion that it is acceptable to use these funds as they are not "general funds". Kind of like saying that it's okay to take a home equity loan or 401(k) distribution to fund a diamond ring because it's not coming out of my checkbook/paycheck (not a perfect analogy, I realize...)
To the greater point, all these questions can be fairly easily swept under the rug by the Council because it's always easier to spend someone else's money - which is what the Council is doing. We would all do much better to not psychologically divorce the fact of taxes paid is OUR money being paid without our real or practical consent. Just as many of us would be much more keenly focused on taxes if we actually had to write a check for income taxes instead of conveniently having them deducted out of a paycheck, perhaps we would be more keenly focused on expenditures if we all had to physically write a property tax check instead of including it in a mortgage or rent. Perhaps the Council would have a bit tougher questions to answer.
All my ranting said, I will say if I have to go to a mall, Southdale is more approachable than MOA. However, living on the northern side of the city I have little reason to go to either.
Yes, but those funds wouldn't go to any other need (or at least any other non-related sort of need) -- they money is coming from a tax increment financing district. Granted, I'm no TIF expert, but it seems like a good use of TIF in this particular case. I don't believe they legally COULD divert that money to other functions of government. Granted, they don't have to give it Simon specifically, but so much of the other development in the Southdale area really does need Southdale there, and Southdale remains the transit hub for the area.
I think this is a prime example of the potential pitfalls of allowing a privately-owned enterprise become so essential to the community, however. But, like it or not, that's the way it is in Edina (modern Edina has essentially grown up around Southdale), and Edina needs Southdale to thrive. Perhaps as all the new development continues to evolve and infrastructure is improved the mall itself will become less essential, even as it helps to spark some of that development.
In response to some earlier posts: yes, the Herberger's at Southtown is still open. The Southdale one is much fancier, and apparently they draw different crowds.
And another post: I don't think Southdale has a reputation for being "rough."
Yes, but those funds wouldn't go to any other need (or at least any other non-related sort of need) -- they money is coming from a tax increment financing district. Granted, I'm no TIF expert, but it seems like a good use of TIF in this particular case. I don't believe they legally COULD divert that money to other functions of government. Granted, they don't have to give it Simon specifically, but so much of the other development in the Southdale area really does need Southdale there, and Southdale remains the transit hub for the area.
I think this is a prime example of the potential pitfalls of allowing a privately-owned enterprise become so essential to the community, however. But, like it or not, that's the way it is in Edina (modern Edina has essentially grown up around Southdale), and Edina needs Southdale to thrive. Perhaps as all the new development continues to evolve and infrastructure is improved the mall itself will become less essential, even as it helps to spark some of that development.
In response to some earlier posts: yes, the Herberger's at Southtown is still open. The Southdale one is much fancier, and apparently they draw different crowds.
And another post: I don't think Southdale has a reputation for being "rough."
Check out the messages on the various newspaper articles about Southdale and they have several people that have said that Southdale is a thug hangout on Weekends. I can see that. During the day everyone says it's fine but the evenings, especially weekends, not so good. Burnsville Mall is the same way too. I would guess Rosedale has issues. I know Maplewood Mall has also had issues too.
Yes, but those funds wouldn't go to any other need (or at least any other non-related sort of need) -- they money is coming from a tax increment financing district. Granted, I'm no TIF expert, but it seems like a good use of TIF in this particular case. I don't believe they legally COULD divert that money to other functions of government. Granted, they don't have to give it Simon specifically, but so much of the other development in the Southdale area really does need Southdale there, and Southdale remains the transit hub for the area.
I think this is a prime example of the potential pitfalls of allowing a privately-owned enterprise become so essential to the community, however. But, like it or not, that's the way it is in Edina (modern Edina has essentially grown up around Southdale), and Edina needs Southdale to thrive. Perhaps as all the new development continues to evolve and infrastructure is improved the mall itself will become less essential, even as it helps to spark some of that development.
In response to some earlier posts: yes, the Herberger's at Southtown is still open. The Southdale one is much fancier, and apparently they draw different crowds.
And another post: I don't think Southdale has a reputation for being "rough."
I also am not a TIF expert, but it seems the idea of TIF is predicated on the belief taking a loan to "invest" into an area now will pay for itself in the future from the presumed additional property tax that will be derived from the improvement of the property/properties (or, back to "spend our way to prosperity"). There are plenty of assumptions being made such as: will the property actually increase in value and therefore tax revenues to cover the loan? Will the cost of government remain the same in the future to allow the "increment" to be large enough to pay the loan (which seems to ignore inflation, among other things)? These are just the ones I'm thinking of at the moment.
There is a seeming disconnect between the fact (back to an original point I made) private investors will not invest their own money into a project as they do not see the profitable return on investment. Why in the world do we think government can do better? Private investors investing their own cash will almost certainly be much more diligent to see their money is being well-spent and managed so as to maximize profit and return on investment. Government has little such motivation. We have seen far too many examples of government investment being more concerned about political favors and payback as opposed to efficient management of funds. When you stack all the assumptions and variables, I posit the City of Edina would do better to take their $5M to the blackjack tables than invest in what should be a private corporations responsibility.
Let's keep in mind TIF is theoretically supposed to be to rehabilitate areas of cities that are dilapidated. While we've had the question if Southdale has attracted some rough-around-the-edges element, I think it's a strained argument to say that a mall with a Macy's, a suped-up Herberger's, an Apple Store and an Abercrombie & Fitch really qualifies as "dilapidated".
In the meantime, if we assume TIF does what it is supposed to do, then Southdale will presumably be able to charge more rent meaning greater income to Simon for their free handout of $5M. Will Edina taxpayers ever see a cut of the additional rent revenues being derived from their investment? Highly unlikely.
Also if TIF does what it theoretically is supposed to do, the reality is this: the money is being spent today and paid in the future. Those pretty new tiles to be made and installed into Southdale have to be paid for today. Workers creating those tiles and installing them have families to feed, clothe, and shelter tonight - not in 5, 10, 20 years when the TIF district theoretically pays for itself. Point being - the money has to come from somewhere today, which means it is not available for more legitimate functions of government such as roads, police, and fire. That means Edina taxpayers are being compelled to be involved in a business deal that takes funds one way or another from essential functions of government and routes it to a private company; that is as objectionable a form of welfare as any social welfare project. Someone is being expected to live their live for the near exclusive sake of another person - in a slightly different context such actions would be tantamount to slavery (and, no...I don't think I'm getting into hyperbole).
On the idea of Southdale being a "privately-owned enterprise (that) become so essential to the community"...I have no theoretical objection to Southdale as a private enterprise and even one that Edina places much of its identity into...let the free market prevail. But, if Southdale is as pivotal to Edina as my friend UU posits, then the private market would recognize it as such and make the investments needed to extract a profit. That they do not indicates Southdale (at least as it currently) is isn't the lynchpin of Edina society the Council may want it to be.
Har Mar might also come reasonably close. I don't think it has a pet store or drug store. And Target is across the street. There's no food court, but there are a fair number of restaurants.
No drug store in Har Mar, but there is a pet store (and, again, Target across the street). Also, while not a food court, the scope and size of Har Mar keeps it fairly approachable for reaching the restaurants that are there.
Now, if Har Mar could fill it's too many open storefronts it would be a better yet. Memory tells me there are at least 5-6 open spaces (which for its size is a relatively large percentage), with Buffalo Wild Wings perhaps the most notable recent move out of Har Mar (they moved to a new building across from Rosedale).
Check out the messages on the various newspaper articles about Southdale and they have several people that have said that Southdale is a thug hangout on Weekends. I can see that. During the day everyone says it's fine but the evenings, especially weekends, not so good. Burnsville Mall is the same way too. I would guess Rosedale has issues. I know Maplewood Mall has also had issues too.
that is so far from the truth. southdale mall is dead. plus on weekends everyone goes to moa. the only reason southdale mall looks packed is because of the cheesecake factory. thats it
Check out the messages on the various newspaper articles about Southdale and they have several people that have said that Southdale is a thug hangout on Weekends. I can see that. During the day everyone says it's fine but the evenings, especially weekends, not so good. Burnsville Mall is the same way too. I would guess Rosedale has issues. I know Maplewood Mall has also had issues too.
What shopping mall HASN'T had "issues?" Have we already forgotten the little incident at MOA last December? Every indoor shopping center will eventually become a thug hangout. Anyone wanting to actually spend money will have moved to the internet.
Rosedale's main issue is that it's overrun on weekends because everyone who comes to town from up north to go shopping, goes to Rosedale.
Finding parking at Rosedale, especially on weekends before Christmas, can be a nightmare. They simply don't have enough parking.
That sort of implies that thugs aren't Rosedale's biggest issue.
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