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Cost of living in Seattle is higher though. I had a friend who interviewed with Microsoft to the point where she was house shopping (didn't end up getting the job, but made it to the final final interview process). They were shocked at how much more an equivalent house cost in the Seattle area. They ended up moving to Colorado Springs.
I know another guy who has the choice of moving to Seattle, Portland, or Salt Lake. He's choosing Portland.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Originally Posted by Globe199
Seattle blows away the Twin Cities. Their downtown is vastly superior to ours. It is a much more physically attractive city, with the Puget Sound on one side and the Cascades on the other. The recreational opportunities there make Minnesota look like backyard camping.
San Diego is the ultimate US city -- if you have the money. If money were no object, I would move to La Jolla today.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
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Originally Posted by sondra_finchley
Globe199 is right - their downtown is gorgeous and people actually use it! Here everyone is shuttling around in those hamster tubes between buildings. My friend and I stumbled upon a fun Halloween party/art thing going on at their Museum of Modern Art because it is a walkable downtown and the museum is actually down there. We met locals at some of the downtown bars and went with them to live music venues they knew about (also downtown) and then on to late night restaurants in an adjacent part of town that was still walkable. And all sorts of folks were out and about doing the same thing.
Extreme winters have a nontrivial impact on downtown. Do you really think people want to trudge through the snow and slush for a quarter of the year?
Outside of physical and demographic measures, MSP is lacking in a young, fresh, creative start-up or high-tech vibe. I was in Seattle for a long weekend last fall and even though I had been there many times before, Seattle just has a better vibe. It felt like something was happening there - the arts, creativity, fast moving companies and large corporate entities all dialed in to the here and now of the global economy. Here it tends to be old-style, plodding corporate dinosaurs. Venture funding doesn't come to MSP - it goes to places like SEA. Start-ups happen in MSP, but they take off in Silicon Valley, Boston, or another creative city - like Seattle- where there is critical mass of additional players, competitors, educated workforce for those fields, and venture capital and a supportive environment that just doesn't exist here. It has a good location too for business with connections to Asia (diversity!), the beautiful city of Vancouver across the border, and down into Portland, SF, and LA.
Globe199 is right - their downtown is gorgeous and people actually use it! Here everyone is shuttling around in those hamster tubes between buildings. My friend and I stumbled upon a fun Halloween party/art thing going on at their Museum of Modern Art because it is a walkable downtown and the museum is actually down there. We met locals at some of the downtown bars and went with them to live music venues they knew about (also downtown) and then on to late night restaurants in an adjacent part of town that was still walkable. And all sorts of folks were out and about doing the same thing.
Caveat - I am not a Minnesota native and only moved here a few years ago.
Your observations are spot on. The Twin Cities is a strange place. People who grew up there or in the region love it. If you didn't, I can easily see why people not orginally from there would not stay. So much about Minnesota to natives is the memories we have of growing up and just the entire strong sense of community and family there. The traditions, sense of civic duty, and just overall caring for the community and people in it. It's hard to put into words. I'm sure the same thing happens in other cities to a degree, but I really believe the Twin Cities is a unique place. It shares many of the same characteristics of a small town, but with the benefit of having a ton of culture, diversity, and educated people. It's a special place.
And many outsiders who move there do, over time, recognize the special qualities of MSP. But I can see how there would be this longing for something more than many native Minnesotans may not have, not having lived anywhere else. You provided some great examples. Business. Yes, for many, the paths after college are to either work for Medtronic, Target, General Mills, 3M, or any one of the other big companies, go buy a new house out in the suburbs, start popping out kids, and call it a day. And who can blame them? It's a stable life and one they learned from their parents. Now part of this is, as you said, there just isn't the venture capital environment in MN. So it's hard to get excited about starting something new when the culture just doesn't exist and the barrier to entry is high. That said, you do see a lot of product invention, investment in franchises, craftsman, and other ways people go out and make a name for themselves. People are very hard-working. The number of blue-collar people who have a nice house, plus a cabin, plus all the toys that go along with that is huge. People work hard and do well. But yes, the city suffers in many ways from the lack of new people coming in. The majority of people coming into the region are from the greater midwest so it really ends up being more of the same types of people. MSP is, however, enriched culturally from the refugees.
Downtown. Yep. While Minneapolis has been MUCH improved over the last decade, it still has a long, long ways to go. Besides theater row on Hennepin, downtown lacks any kind of energy other than the primary activity (going to get wasted in the Warehouse district). After the workers leave, the stores shut down and the street vibe goes with it. Additionally, with many great cities, you'll find a vibrant waterfront that the city takes advantage of. Obviously the geography of the Mississippi makes it hard for Mpls to ever be on par with SF, Seattle, etc, but besides the Stone Arch Bridge area, the river is all but ignored in Minneapolis. The plans to change that cannot come soon enough. The real problem I have with downtown is a lack of any focal point. No one place where everyone gathers. Every great city has a central hub of activity that people filter to. Nicollet Mall used to be the closest thing to that, but it's dead. Hennepin has now replaced that, but there still aren't enough reasons for people to stay and make a night out of being there. I think Minneapolis needs to do something bold like the Freemont Street Experience in Las Vegas. Create interesting stores, museums, etc that are open into the night along an active, vibrant street with vendors and things to do. The best cities are the ones grown organically. Which is why something like Block E failed. When you try too hard to create a feeling from the ground up, it fails. For all of the art in this city, instead of converting every warehouse in the North Loop to condos, encourage a whole street of them to convert to Art Galleries, studios, etc. One of the problems with Minneapolis is that its good parts are so spread out and not easily accessible to visitors. You have the great Northrup King building, but only locals know how to get there because it's away from everything else. That goes for the entire NorthEast Arts district. It's far away from downtown and the buildings are too far apart to create any kind of singular experience for visitors. Another great example -- Midtown Global Market. In ANY other city, that would exist near the city center, near other tourist attractions and street life. This is the sort of thing that needs to be DOWNTOWN. Show off our art, our culture. These are the things that makes the Twin Cities so great. But instead, visitors have to hop in their cars or navigate bus schedules in order to visit this site over here, that site over there. Streetcars would help, but even then everything is so dispersed. The majority of visitors likely come to to the Mall of America, then maybe one day take the light rail into downtown to see what there is to see. That's it. They are not going to venture to NorthEast, Midtown Global Market, Uptown, the lakes, etc. They have no easy way to get there. So tourists miss out on experiencing all that Minneapolis has to offer. These are the things they would fall in love with. Not a boring downtown that is no different from other downtowns of a similar size.
The kicker about the Twin Cities is that is has the potential to be a place on par with Seattle, etc. When you look at the creative place it already is (art, food, music, culture), it really has the qualities of other world-class cities. But it's held back from ever getting there because of (focus on suburbs vs inner core, late to the game mass-transit, not a high enough immigration of people with different backgrounds, and not enough new companies wanting to move here). In many ways it is stale. People are accustomed to a certain way of life and like it that way. It will take generations to change that. I personally am torn. I like the Twin Cities for having all the awesome things of a big city, but in a smaller package that allows for a less-stressful, simple, modest, low cost-of-living way of life. A lot of that would be given up if it did become more like a Seattle.
So I don't know. You just enjoy the good parts of each place.
Last edited by queenswake; 05-04-2012 at 08:03 PM..
Actually, the Twin Cities have a decent reputation for attracting the "creative class." There are plenty of issues facing the metro area, and many big ideas move at glacial speed, but the characterization that it's lacking creative energy is, I think, off.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,509 posts, read 11,878,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queenswake
Your observations are spot on. The Twin Cities is a strange place. People who grew up there or in the region love it. If you didn't, I can easily see why people not orginally from there would not stay. So much about Minnesota to natives is the memories we have of growing up and just the entire strong sense of community and family there. The traditions, sense of civic duty, and just overall caring for the community and people in it. It's hard to put into words. I'm sure the same thing happens in other cities to a degree, but I really believe the Twin Cities is a unique place. It shares many of the same characteristics of a small town, but with the benefit of having a ton of culture, diversity, and educated people. It's a special place.
And many outsiders who move there do, over time, recognize the special qualities of MSP. But I can see how there would be this longing for something more than many native Minnesotans may not have, not having lived anywhere else. You provided some great examples. Business. Yes, for many, the paths after college are to either work for Medtronic, Target, General Mills, 3M, or any one of the other big companies, go buy a new house out in the suburbs, start popping out kids, and call it a day. And who can blame them? It's a stable life and one they learned from their parents. Now part of this is, as you said, there just isn't the venture capital environment in MN. So it's hard to get excited about starting something new when the culture just doesn't exist and the barrier to entry is high. That said, you do see a lot of product invention, investment in franchises, craftsman, and other ways people go out and make a name for themselves. People are very hard-working. The number of blue-collar people who have a nice house, plus a cabin, plus all the toys that go along with that is huge. People work hard and do well. But yes, the city suffers in many ways from the lack of new people coming in. The majority of people coming into the region are from the greater midwest so it really ends up being more of the same types of people. MSP is, however, enriched culturally from the refugees.
Downtown. Yep. While Minneapolis has been MUCH improved over the last decade, it still has a long, long ways to go. Besides theater row on Hennepin, downtown lacks any kind of energy other than the primary activity (going to get wasted in the Warehouse district). After the workers leave, the stores shut down and the street vibe goes with it. Additionally, with many great cities, you'll find a vibrant waterfront that the city takes advantage of. Obviously the geography of the Mississippi makes it hard for Mpls to ever be on par with SF, Seattle, etc, but besides the Stone Arch Bridge area, the river is all but ignored in Minneapolis. The plans to change that cannot come soon enough. The real problem I have with downtown is a lack of any focal point. No one place where everyone gathers. Every great city has a central hub of activity that people filter to. Nicollet Mall used to be the closest thing to that, but it's dead. Hennepin has now replaced that, but there still aren't enough reasons for people to stay and make a night out of being there. I think Minneapolis needs to do something bold like the Freemont Street Experience in Las Vegas. Create interesting stores, museums, etc that are open into the night along an active, vibrant street with vendors and things to do.
The kicker about the Twin Cities is that is has the potential to be a place on par with Seattle, etc. When you look at the creative place it already is (art, food, music, culture), it really has the qualities of other world-class cities. But it's held back from ever getting there because of (focus on suburbs vs inner core, late to the game mass-transit, not a high enough immigration of people with different backgrounds, and not enough new companies wanting to move here). In many ways it is stale. People are accustomed to a certain way of life and like it that way. It will take generations to change that. I personally am torn. I like the Twin Cities for having all the awesome things of a big city, but in a smaller package that allows for a less-stressful, simple, modest, low cost-of-living way of life. A lot of that would be given up if it did become more like a Seattle.
So I don't know. You just enjoy the good parts of each place.
Yet Minneapolis leads the nation year after year as the city with the highest percentage of residents who stay after they move......so much for your theory -- at least, it's not all-encompassing.
People expect too much from this city sometimes, which is fine, but considering it's so well-rounded and generally "elite" on many levels why argue? Seattle is another city that is well-rounded and generally elite on many levels, but it's also a bit different, in both good and bad ways. I for one, could never adopt the culture out there -- not my thing AT ALL! I also think the city has not had to experience as much adversity as other Midwestern cities (incl. the Twin Cities) in terms of economic hardship OR large populations or poor, uneducated or underserved people. It's tucked in the corner of the country and far far away from just about every major city in America, so it has much less competition from nearby cities in its region. Think about it: if Google wants to open a Midwestern regional HQ, do they think of putting it in Minneapolis first? Probably not, it's probably Chicago, and sometimes Madison, Ann Arbor, or the plethora of large cities in the Midwest who are DESPERATE for Google's business and would essentially subsidize its entire HQ if they could convince them to come (I can't remember which city actually tried this). Seattle does not have to deal with that. They ARE the cremme de la cremme in thier region, even if they are only slightly larger than the Twin Cities. They don't have cities like Chicago to compete with for the money and resources that make cities greater, and they don't have anything close to the desperation you see in many of the Midwests' Rust Belt cities to either poach businesses away with give-aways. We're one of 10-12 options.....Seattle is one of two in that region, or 4 if you include Vancouver and San Francisco.
In all, the Twin Cities does pretty damn well considering the adversity it faces, and I think that's a testament to the people who choose to live here (born and raised or relocated).
Actually, the Twin Cities have a decent reputation for attracting the "creative class." There are plenty of issues facing the metro area, and many big ideas move at glacial speed, but the characterization that it's lacking creative energy is, I think, off.
Oh, I never said that it lacked creative energy. I don't dispute that. I'm sorry my point was misunderstood. My point was that I think MSP suffers because not enough members of its "creative class" are coming from other places with different experiences and backgrounds and ethnicities. Most seem to have been born here or from the surrounding states. This is a major difference from SF, Seattle, Boston, Portland, etc where you have people not only coming from other parts of the country, but from around the world. When you attract more people not from here, a lot of stuff comes with that (businesses, venture capital, and new ideas).
Yet Minneapolis leads the nation year after year as the city with the highest percentage of residents who stay after they move......so much for your theory -- at least, it's not all-encompassing.
.
I have heard that fact as well. Which is great. But out of how many total people who are moving there as compared to how many people move into other cities. And how many of these people who end up staying were originally from the surrounding area anyway. That's my larger point. Not a huge number of incoming people and not from diverse enough areas. I was trying to agree with the previous poster about why a more global population of Seattle made it different from Minneapolis.
Hey, I'm not bashing the Twin Cities. I've been away for over a decade and have been wanting to move back since the day I moved away. I think most of the whining about the state you see are from the people who live there and have never lived elsewhere. Having lived elsewhere makes you realize how, despite its faults, how awesome it is. Having grown up there, I realize I am biased because everyone is attached to "home", but being away for so long has given me an objective perspective on how great it is.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Originally Posted by queenswake
I have heard that fact as well. Which is great. But out of how many total people who are moving there as compared to how many people move into other cities. And how many of these people who end up staying were originally from the surrounding area anyway. That's my larger point. Not a huge number of incoming people and not from diverse enough areas. I was trying to agree with the previous poster about why a more global population of Seattle made it different from Minneapolis.
Hey, I'm not bashing the Twin Cities. I've been away for over a decade and have been wanting to move back since the day I moved away. I think most of the whining about the state you see are from the people who live there and have never lived elsewhere. Having lived elsewhere makes you realize how, despite its faults, how awesome it is. Having grown up there, I realize I am biased because everyone is attached to "home", but being away for so long has given me an objective perspective on how great it is.
I'm saying that percentage IS from outstate, not instate.
I wasn't suggesting you were bashing the TC's (hell, go ahead, it would be ridiculous to think they were perfect.....unlike a certain Washington state I know), but wanted to correct you on what I've heard about transplants and the Twin Cities: they take to them very well...IFF they stay a year or two first! Big IFF, if you ask me, since people have short fuses.
On a side note, I think one great thing that is happening in the Twin Cities is that about 50% or more of its population growth is occuring in and around its core cities. This is WITHOUT the high cost of living that cities on the coasts (incl. Seattle) experience. This is an encouraging trend, and not on a small scale either. Although the Census Bureau shows the Cities gaining about 30K-35K people last year, and shows Seattle as gaining 50K-55K people (both nearly moot figures since they're largely based on historical data, incl. the pre-recession years), the majority of the incomming population is interested in living near the core.
I still think it must depend on field or other context; perhaps it's just a fluke, but of the people I know in the Twin Cities not originally from there, almost all are from other regions. Lots of people from the coasts (especially NYC and various parts of CA), which I suppose is understandable since so many millions of people are from those locations to begin with. Some may also have to do with age; while I'm sure many younger people would prefer San Francisco or New York City, the appeal of the Twin Cities becomes MUCH stronger when you get to the age where you might want to add a kid to the mix. Decent public schools and a much more affordable cost of living make it an easier place to live. You give up some things in return, but a thriving arts and cultural scene and a decent, if smaller, option of urban amenities seem like a decent alternative to bigger, and far more expensive, cities.
FWIW, I think the recent figures for the city of Minneapolis showed that only about half of the residents were born in Minnesota. And purely from personal observation, many of the people I know who are Twin Cities-born returned after living for years in other cities outside of the Midwest. (admittedly a skewed sampling, as I lived and worked in the city, am surrounded by the classic "creative" types)
I think in some ways we may agree, though. I have wondered if the metropolitan area as a whole suffers from the "local" mentality, but I think some of that stems from politics and culture and the fact that the core cities have relatively little local clout, while politicians representing some of the region's suburbs have been fairly anti-urban. The kind of people who look at NYC or even Seattle with disdain and wonder why anyone would WANT to be like that.
One final comment, and perhaps a bit of a tangent, but when we initially moved back to MN I realized just how little attention I'd really paid to other cities and towns in or near MN. I've spent lots of years living in other parts of the country, but there's also something to be learned from places closer to home, too.
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