Why MSP keeps lagging behind its peers (credit, top school)

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by Globe199

I wasn't talking about demographics. I was getting at the sharp drop in investment here (stadiums don't count). Transit and education investment, for example, have not kept up with growth.

So am I. Atlanta is having a hard time spending much money on ANYTHING, although the new mayor is doing a good job to correct some of that. Not enough cops on the street, not enough funding to fix roads (so metal plates are being left all over the place), not enough money to fund new schools (so many public schools here have to use trailers for student classrooms even in wealthy areas), etc.

You were talking about a lack of "evolution" in the Twin Cities, and I'm simply pointing out that rapid change of any kind comes with its own set of issues, some of them much harder to manage than you seem to be accounting for.

[rzzz]

Originally Posted by Mason3000

Minneapolis has a smug mentality? Why because people are proud of what we've built, proud of our heritage & not in a big rush to change what works?

What exactly is similar between us & the rust belt cities you listed that depended entirely on the auto & steel industries?

Follow me, I'm right behind you to file my suggested state motto change it's going to be... "Minnesota, #1 in education, #1 in health care, #1 in literacy, #1 in quality of life, last in crime rate, help us change it!"

I think that is the smugness he means. Whenever someone mentions things can be improved, some native Minnesotan will say just what you said. MN ranks well in the categories you mention much of the time, but it is never #1 in any of those categories, besides maybe "most literate" (which isn't equivalent to "literacy".) And, it is often below par in other categories that have quite a big impact on people's day to day lives, like the economy and transportation infrastructure.

All of New England and Virginia have MN beat in education. Quality of life generally ranks better in places like Colorado, New Hampshire, Hawaii and Vermont. Business friendliness, high tech investment, transportation infrastructure, and just the general economy are better in more than half of the other states. Many MN locals don't realize this and are still convinced MN is doing better in all categories, meanwhile, young people can't find jobs, the freeway collapses due to infrastructure neglect, the metro area and the state have lost population over the past decade, and so forth.

It's smugness to just wave away all the problems and suggestions for improvement because you're living in an imagined Lake Woebegon version of Minnesota.

[Globe199]

Minnesota, #1 in education, #1 in health care, #1 in literacy, #1 in quality of life, last in crime rate

I assume this is what you are referring to:



This is the graphical version of Minnesota Smug (tm). That cover is from almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit since then.

Anyway, I'll finish your Minnesota Smug (tm) rant for you: if you don't like Minnesota, just leave. We don't want you here anyway. A friend of mine has used this when I would dare to imply that anything could improve here.

I think that is the smugness he means. Whenever someone mentions things can be improved, some native Minnesotan will say just what you said. MN ranks well in the categories you mention much of the time, but it is never #1 in any of those categories, besides maybe "most literate" (which isn't equivalent to "literacy".) And, it is often below par in other categories that have quite a big impact on people's day to day lives, like the economy and transportation infrastructure.

All of New England and Virginia have MN beat in education. Quality of life generally ranks better in places like Colorado, New Hampshire, Hawaii and Vermont. Business friendliness, high tech investment, transportation infrastructure, and just the general economy are better in more than half of the other states. Many MN locals don't realize this and are still convinced MN is doing better in all categories, meanwhile, young people can't find jobs, the freeway collapses due to infrastructure neglect, the metro area and the state have lost population over the past decade, and so forth.

It's smugness to just wave away all the problems and suggestions for improvement because you're living in an imagined Lake Woebegon version of Minnesota.

Well said.

By the way, that bridge collapse? Never happened. At least as far as politics is concerned.

Education? We've had one form of state government after another for at least 14 years that have been more interested in demonizing schools and teachers than helping improve them. Forget higher education; that's a liberal indoctrination factory.

The metro area and state didn't lose population, but growth slowed. That isn't a good sign.

I guess my point is that the Time Magazine cover didn't happen by accident. The political environment that gave rise to Lake Wobegon Days is long gone.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by rzzz

All of New England and Virginia have MN beat in education.

I have my doubts about the above, and would be very interested in seeing studies which support those assertions.

That said, however, a state doesn't have to be "the best" at education in order to provide a very good public education to its citizens. Being #1 is not the goal ... the goal is to provide what our kids require in order to excel in society. It isn't a competition.

Having lived in another state now for almost eight years, and having seen the rather large differences between the way this state handles education and the way Minnesota does, I've realized that there is a very real basis for the high opinion that Minnesotans have for their public schools.

It's smugness to just wave away all the problems and suggestions for improvement because you're living in an imagined Lake Woebegon version of Minnesota.

Perhaps. However, shouting that the sky is falling is equally foolish. Neither extreme is true, and as far as I can see MN as a whole is doing a damned sight better than what I have around me down here...

[rzzz]

The sky didn't fall but 35W did. Something which should not occur in a 1st world country at all, much less the best place to live in the entire USA with the best looking men and strongest women, best education system, most literate population with the best quality of life ever known.

I am also in Atlanta which perhaps isn't the greatest frame of reference. MN has GEORGIA beat on a number of quality of life points but I'm not sure that's much to boast about. Education wise, Georgia has stuff like the HOPE scholarships which MN does not have, as well as GT being one of the top 4 engineering schools in the country just behind MIT, Stanford and Berkeley. If a Georgia student has good enough grades, she can get an MIT level education for about a thousand dollars per year, something that is not going to happen at the University of Minnesota measured either by price or quality.

Being #1 is not a bad goal, and once you leave Lake Wobegon, society actually is quite competitive. MN can and should do better than it does, but it's natives are always saying, "why bother?"

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by rzzz

The sky didn't fall but 35W did. Something which should not occur in a 1st world country at all, much less the best place to live in the entire USA with the best looking men and strongest women, best education system, most literate population with the best quality of life ever known.

*snort*

The general population of Minnesota was not the reason the bridge failed ... it failed due to a very specific engineering failure. Not sure how it reflects on MN as a whole.

I am also in Atlanta which perhaps isn't the greatest frame of reference. MN has GEORGIA beat on a number of quality of life points but I'm not sure that's much to boast about. Education wise, Georgia has stuff like the HOPE scholarships which MN does not have, as well as GT being one of the top 4 engineering schools in the country just behind MIT, Stanford and Berkeley. If a Georgia student has good enough grades, she can get an MIT level education for about a thousand dollars per year, something that is not going to happen at the University of Minnesota measured either by price or quality.

That is true (the HOPE scholarship is a brilliant idea that I think MN should emulate), but look at the patchwork quality of the suburban schools down here. I live in Cobb County, which is home to Walton and some other top ranked GA public schools, but it is also home to schools like South Cobb HS. That school has no equivalent at all in the Twin Cities AFAICT. People are absolutely locked into school feeder patterns down here, and because of that a lot of folks are faced with making a choice between crappy public schools or expensive private schools. And this is in the suburbs, not the city!

I'm not sure I'd sell the U of MN so short, though ... the Carlson School of Business is highly respected nationally, and I've found that even Mankato State is known to some companies down here in an IT context. I wasn't the first with a BSCS from that school at my current employer, for example, and I suspect it helped me get the position here.

The two areas are closer in many other ways, I admit, but in terms of an ability to coordinate and to undertake major projects, I think the Twin Cities absolutely crush Atlanta. See the Georgia versus Minnesota thread in the City vs. City forum, tho, for arguments both ways.

Being #1 is not a bad goal, and once you leave Lake Wobegon, society actually is quite competitive. MN can and should do better than it does, but it's natives are always saying, "why bother?"

Utter nonsense. As opposed to GA, where the state fights the city on all matters, and where any attempt to create something like the current TSPLOST to address some transportation projects regionally causes people to complain about "socialism" and "racial favoritism"? How dare multiple counties cooperate! Unheard of! ITP versus OTP, Cobb and Gwinnett versus Fulton, over and over and over again.

It makes me sick.

Besides, it's obvious to me that Minnesotans don't always say "why bother" ... look at the Hiawatha Line. The new Twins ballpark. The new LR line going down through the southwestern suburbs. Those are good projects, and large projects, and they demonstrate a will in the community to improve things when such change is warranted. Atlanta can't even expand MARTA. It was a great project 50+ years ago, and it's a very good HR backbone, but it's stagnant, and the satellite job centers are mostly unable to benefit from it.

I think you're totally off in your assertions, but we can agree to disagree. Seriously, I don't get your viewpoint at all...

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by rzzz

I think that is the smugness he means. Whenever someone mentions things can be improved, some native Minnesotan will say just what you said. MN ranks well in the categories you mention much of the time, but it is never #1 in any of those categories, besides maybe "most literate" (which isn't equivalent to "literacy".) And, it is often below par in other categories that have quite a big impact on people's day to day lives, like the economy and transportation infrastructure.

All of New England and Virginia have MN beat in education. Quality of life generally ranks better in places like Colorado, New Hampshire, Hawaii and Vermont. Business friendliness, high tech investment, transportation infrastructure, and just the general economy are better in more than half of the other states. Many MN locals don't realize this and are still convinced MN is doing better in all categories, meanwhile, young people can't find jobs, the freeway collapses due to infrastructure neglect, the metro area and the state have lost population over the past decade, and so forth.

It's smugness to just wave away all the problems and suggestions for improvement because you're living in an imagined Lake Woebegon version of Minnesota.

MN leads the nation in ACT and SAT scores....

[Dr.drew]

Originally Posted by golfgal

MN leads the nation in ACT and SAT scores....

Too bad that's the biggest accomplishment of a lot of kids

[rzzz]

Only 7% of MN students take the SAT

[Dr.drew]

Originally Posted by rzzz

Only 7% of MN students take the SAT

Is this good or bad in relation to the percentage of kids taking it in other states?