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Old 07-06-2012, 03:19 PM
 
83 posts, read 130,281 times
Reputation: 141

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pzrOrange View Post
then you should be a #1 proponent of better control over US - Mexico border (tougher enforcement, bigger fences, more beefed up security, etc). something tells me you are going to be opposed to that because this is a republican stance.

in addition, what you are worried about is already illegal - international drug and gun trafficing. just by issuing yet another piece of paper that says something, you won't change a thing. hell, killing people is already illegal. what you are advocating for is merely screwing it up for the rest of us. for example, I am not even a gun owner (my wife is absolutely opposed to me storing a gun in our household -- for now at least), but I will be extremely upset if my freedom to go buy a gun at any moment is limited. I am law-abiding, sane, a tax payer, and a productive memeber of soceity, so I'll be damned if I can't exercise my legitimate constitutional right to go buy a firearm!

that said, I do agree that the only thing that may truly turn things around is legalization of drugs (similar to prohibition era gangsters experience) . not in our lifetimes, I am afraid.



OK lets turn your argument around. so you have a couple of thugs on the street (high out of their minds) running towards you and your family with giant machetes. what are you going to do if the **** hits the fan? dial 911? scream "but this is illegal!!!111"? use your elite karate skills to disarm a guy? pepper sprays are extremely ineffective, tasers are a one-shot weapon at best and wont work properly half the time, so what are you going to do? there is simply no way around it - for self defense and home defense nothing beats a good old pistol with JHP rounds. I realise what I said is a highly unlikely scenario, and this is true - majority of gun owners would never have to kill anyone in their life time. just the possibility alone that somebody may be armed is good enough deterrant for most criminals.

machineguns are already illegal in vast majority of states, and so are fully automatic assault rifles. it doesnt mean that a criminal cannot easily obtain one in the back alley though and go kill some people at his leisure. what you are advocating for is limiting other people's ability to protect themselves. the criminals and the psychos will find a way to obtain a gun either way. for every reported mass killing we have tons of unreported or under-reported cases of how gun owners prevented crimes and saved lives. it goes both ways.
And here is, I think, where we differ. I do not contemplate such scenarios. Perhaps I'm simply less fearful than you?

As I just posted, statistically, you are far more likely to be shot by your own gun than defend yourself with it.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,146 posts, read 4,083,113 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip_shakespeare View Post
I'm not advocating that we eliminate guns. They are, for better or worse, a part of our culture. I don't, though, think that making people jump through a few hoops to obtain one is unreasonable. For example, I see nothing wrong with waiting periods, background checks etc. The idea that we ought not have any laws regarding guns is, I think, extreme.

Statistically, you are more likely to be shot by your own gun than to defend yourself with it. That said, I'd simply rather not own one.
If you don't want to own a firearm then, your choice should be respected.

However, other than a instantaneous background check (which are routinely completed here in Alaska in 30-45 minutes) to determine that I am not a criminal or crazy, there should be no other restrictions on my right to purchase, own or carry any firearm of my choice.

If you choose to totally rely on the police to come and save you, if you ever become a victim, then, you may one day live or die because of your decision.

I choose to not place myself in the position of being a victim by relying on myself to be my first line of defense against any criminal.

Respect my right to protect myself just as I respect your right to not protect yourself.

Just for the record, please realize that the court have already ruled that the police do not have a constitutional responsibility to protect or save you from criminals. First and foremost, you are responsible for protecting yourself.

If you don't believe me, ask the New Orleans survivors of Hurricane Katrina or the L.A. riots how waiting for the police to come and save them, worked out.

The life you save may be your own.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,146 posts, read 4,083,113 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip_shakespeare View Post
And here is, I think, where we differ. I do not contemplate such scenarios. Perhaps I'm simply less fearful than you?

As I just posted, statistically, you are far more likely to be shot by your own gun than defend yourself with it.
I call bullsh*t on your "statistic".

It depends on who has the gun. If the gun owner is someone who is unfamiliar with the weapon, does not properly maintain the weapon, does not train or practice with the weapon (including weapon retention drills) or someone who really does not have the heart to use the weapon when the situation calls for it, then your "statistic" may be true for that particular situation but generally speaking, your statement is not true.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
5,147 posts, read 7,457,846 times
Reputation: 1578
So are we advocating MORE gunfire in St Paul?
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Unlike most on CD, I'm not afraid to give my location: Milwaukee, WI.
1,783 posts, read 4,138,398 times
Reputation: 4078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever View Post
St. Paul gun incident reports up 65% so far in 2012 (w/ searchable map) - TwinCities.com

The number of actual deaths is quite low, but families are unnerved by all the guns being fired. NRA must be so pleased!

The NRA crack is really a cheap shot (no pun intended).
No matter how much the NRA advocates for gun freedoms, they are not to blame for the over-violent and under-intelligent thugs using the guns in illegal ways. How pathetic that I even have to explain this simple concept. Guns don't kill people. Violent morons kill people.
"Diversity" is the real culprit in this case, as it is everywhere that violent crime thrives in modern America. FBI/DOJ Uniform Crime Statistics don't lie.
Sorry for the brutal honesty.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
5,147 posts, read 7,457,846 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkool View Post
The NRA crack is really a cheap shot (no pun intended).
No matter how much the NRA advocates for gun freedoms, they are not to blame for the over-violent and under-intelligent thugs using the guns in illegal ways. How pathetic that I even have to explain this simple concept. Guns don't kill people. Violent morons kill people.
"Diversity" is the real culprit in this case, as it is everywhere that violent crime thrives in modern America. FBI/DOJ Uniform Crime Statistics don't lie.
Sorry for the brutal honesty.
Yeh, yeh, sure. Look at the sales of arms to drug cartels down in Arizona. NO "responsibility" A gun dealer was asked why he sold guns to Mexican criminals. "Because I can". This is the Second Amendment NRA-version. Has NOTHING to do with the original framers of that amendment. Just using "freedom" to make a dirty buck. I don't expect the Second Amendment freaks to ever accept anything wrong in what they demand and pour money into politics to get. Just as the banks will always think it must be someone else to blame for the real estate meltdown. As for DOJ statistics, you're simply reading them like Bible-thumpers read the Bible. To justify anything you want justified.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:58 PM
 
83 posts, read 130,281 times
Reputation: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by phlinak View Post
I call bullsh*t on your "statistic".

It depends on who has the gun. If the gun owner is someone who is unfamiliar with the weapon, does not properly maintain the weapon, does not train or practice with the weapon (including weapon retention drills) or someone who really does not have the heart to use the weapon when the situation calls for it, then your "statistic" may be true for that particular situation but generally speaking, your statement is not true.
Here is an abstract from the American Journal of Epidemiology evidencing the fact that if you have a gun in your home you are not less likely, but more likely, to be murdered or commit suicide.

Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 26,033,577 times
Reputation: 3995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever View Post
Yeh, yeh, sure. Look at the sales of arms to drug cartels down in Arizona. NO "responsibility" A gun dealer was asked why he sold guns to Mexican criminals. "Because I can". This is the Second Amendment NRA-version. Has NOTHING to do with the original framers of that amendment. Just using "freedom" to make a dirty buck.
Interesting.

Do you think that's the typical attitude help by members of the NRA?

Is the gun dealer in question even a member?
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:31 PM
 
Location: St Paul
7,713 posts, read 4,734,006 times
Reputation: 5007
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip_shakespeare View Post

Actually, it does seem that you missed his point. We have areas where we "control" guns. It doesnt seem to work. All the loaded language in your responses does not change that fact.
Loaded language? I guess the posters you agree with get a free pass? I was called a "lazy", "paranoid", "scared" & it was insinuated that I don't get it because I'm a rich kid from Nokomis (lol). And apparently I'm a "super genius" as well, but I notice that loaded language isn't worth a mention.

For the record I don't currently own a gun & have never been a member of the NRA. I do have some training with guns however & will tell you I see a gun simply as an object, a tool, not as a living thing that is either good or evil. The example of the person who lives in Alaska is dead nuts on imo. Or rural Minnesota for that matter, or as Michael Moore pointed out the country with the highest per capita gun owning population...Canada. None of these places have the issues the gun control people are so concerned about, why not? Why can't we admit that it's a small sub-section of the population doing most of the shooting? Why are the pro-gun control people so eager to infringe on law abiding citizens rights, so eager to overturn the Constitution, but so unwilling to talk about who's pulling the triggers? I'm 100% in favor of denying convicted felons access to hand guns. I'm on board with licensing, background & physch checks, short waiting periods, etc. but banning guns altogether because you don't like them is BS. People die every day from drunken drivers, but we don't take away everyone's licenses, we take away the actual people who're not trustworthy of having a license & leave the law abiders alone.

Lastly, I really feel the OP had no business politicizing a very serious issue in St Paul & turning it into a flame war in the first place. I've been impressed with this forum's ability to avoid the predictable & completely worthless left/right internet paradigm but this thread sets an ugly, off-topic precedent.

Last edited by golfgal; 07-07-2012 at 04:49 AM..
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:35 PM
 
Location: St Paul
7,713 posts, read 4,734,006 times
Reputation: 5007
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip_shakespeare View Post
Here is an abstract from the American Journal of Epidemiology evidencing the fact that if you have a gun in your home you are not less likely, but more likely, to be murdered or commit suicide.

Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study
Fine so don't own a gun, why are you so intent on everyone having to live & think by your rules? I'm sure there are things you partake in that I would find distasteful but it's a free country & I respect your right to make your own decisions (even if I don't agree!!!) so long as they don't hurt me or infringe on my rights. Me choosing to own a gun does neither to you.
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