Downtown Minneapolis--Crime Problems (St. Paul, Duluth, Buffalo: section 8, apartments, city hall)

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by Min-Chi-Cbus

No, you cannot fit 10 Manhattans inside Minneapolis -- you can barely fit 2 (size is 23 sq miles, Mpls is 54). That's why the term "crime rate" is used, because it normalizes the comparison in crime depending on the population.

I stand corrected as to the realtive size of Manhatten and Minneapols, but two, ten whatever, the point still stands. As someone points out, we are not discussing crime rates here but the number of crimes to occur within a particular precinct. My point is that larger sized precincts should not be expected to have a larger number of crimes simply by virtue of their larger geographical area. I take it that you do not disagree with my point.

[rogead]

To get an accurate picture of crime rates, you need to look at the numbers of people who pass through a given area on a regular basis. There are about 35,000 people living in Downtown Minneapolis right now. Compare that to a typical residential suburb of 35,000 people: Cottage Grove, for example.

As far as I can tell, Cottage Grove hasn't had a murder in the last ten years. The yearly number of rapes and aggravated assaults has been in the low double-digits for that period. It would be foolish to argue against the very basic claim that there is significantly more violent crime in Downtown Minneapolis than there is in Cottage Grove.

However, the question is whether or not it's reasonable to compare these two similarly-sized populations in regards to crime rates. Most of the people circulating through Cottage Grove are the those who live there. There are minor concentrations of retail employment activity, but there is a daily net loss of population. If you don't live there or visit someone who does, there is very little reason to be there.

Downtown Minneapolis has about the same population as does Cottage Grove. But, 190,000 additional people come into downtown to work. Tens of thousands of others routinely come for sporting events, theaters, musical venues, bars, strip clubs, etc.

Then you have the other factors that make downtown's dynamic so different: huge numbers of people taking public transportation into downtown; large concentrations of juveniles, the homeless, mentally ill, and unemployed people---some of whom are criminally-minded, others of whom are extremely vulnerable; far higher levels of residential and commercial density. All of these factors play a distinguishable, if not primary role, in the level of crime downtown. So, you really aren't making a comparison between two comparable entities.

In the end, it's always a trade-off. If you want to experience what the city has to offer, you put yourself at a somewhat higher risk for crime. On the other hand, if that increased risk is of primary concern, you limit yourself to the cultural and entertainment options available in the suburbs.

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by rogead

To get an accurate picture of crime rates, you need to look at the numbers of people who pass through a given area on a regular basis. There are about 35,000 people living in Downtown Minneapolis right now. Compare that to a typical residential suburb of 35,000 people: Cottage Grove, for example.

As far as I can tell, Cottage Grove hasn't had a murder in the last ten years. The yearly number of rapes and aggravated assaults has been in the low double-digits for that period. It would be foolish to argue against the very basic claim that there is significantly more violent crime in Downtown Minneapolis than there is in Cottage Grove.

However, the question is whether or not it's reasonable to compare these two similarly-sized populations in regards to crime rates. Most of the people circulating through Cottage Grove are the those who live there. There are minor concentrations of retail employment activity, but there is a daily net loss of population. If you don't live there or visit someone who does, there is very little reason to be there.

Downtown Minneapolis has about the same population as does Cottage Grove. But, 190,000 additional people come into downtown to work. Tens of thousands of others routinely come for sporting events, theaters, musical venues, bars, strip clubs, etc.

Then you have the other factors that make downtown's dynamic so different: huge numbers of people taking public transportation into downtown; large concentrations of juveniles, the homeless, mentally ill, and unemployed people---some of whom are criminally-minded, others of whom are extremely vulnerable; far higher levels of residential and commercial density. All of these factors play a distinguishable, if not primary role, in the level of crime downtown. So, you really aren't making a comparison between two comparable entities.

In the end, it's always a trade-off. If you want to experience what the city has to offer, you put yourself at a somewhat higher risk for crime. On the other hand, if that increased risk is of primary concern, you limit yourself to the cultural and entertainment options available in the suburbs.

Good post.

[Beenhere4ever]

Don't even try comparing between NY and Minneapolis. Even the Department of Justice says the numbers don't mean the same thing. But are you really saying that if you had five first precincts the totals would be the same? How does anyone arrive at that projection? As my high school friend says, statistics is the most misunderstood branch of mathematics. Even our kids who are math superstars mangle statistics.

[Min-Chi-Cbus]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

I stand corrected as to the realtive size of Manhatten and Minneapols, but two, ten whatever, the point still stands. As someone points out, we are not discussing crime rates here but the number of crimes to occur within a particular precinct. My point is that larger sized precincts should not be expected to have a larger number of crimes simply by virtue of their larger geographical area. I take it that you do not disagree with my point.

Understood.

[nrogers1122]

Originally Posted by dravogadro

Plenty of police out and about this evening on Hennepin Ave, including Sheriffs.

If I am riding my bike across town, I always choose to bike through downtown. Plenty of light, south/north route has good light timing and fun people-watching.

I also love the DID ambassadors....

Funny story about the DID ambassadors - I was taking a few of my law school buddies out for lunch downtown one day. I had been down there a few times, and knew of the program. They hadn't been downtown much before. Unfortunately, I couldn't remember which way to turn on Nicollet to get to where we were going. As we are waiting on the street corner, we hear a deep voice behind us say "You guys need directions?"

At this point, I turned around to see a DID ambassador. I knew instantly who he was and was not bothered - in fact I engaged with a brief conversation. My two buddies, on the other hand, took off across the street - scared out of their minds. Freaking hilarious.

[dravogadro]

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

At this point, I turned around to see a DID ambassador. I knew instantly who he was and was not bothered - in fact I engaged with a brief conversation. My two buddies, on the other hand, took off across the street - scared out of their minds. Freaking hilarious.

Scared of neon green shirts?

[nrogers1122]

Originally Posted by dravogadro

Scared of neon green shirts?

I guess - although I don't think they bothered to turn around and check before they took off.

[Beenhere4ever]

Yet violent crime overall in downtown Minneapolis is up more than 60 percent compared to 2011."It gives the entire city a black eye," Kaufman said

KAALtv.com - KSTP Investigates: Sunday Night Chaos at Downtown Bars

Well, now the whole WORLD isn't in denial over what is obvious. Some are sitting up and taking notice. Don Samuels of the City Council is appalled what it takes to maintain peace downtown, especially on Sunday night.

[Globe199]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

KAALtv.com - KSTP Investigates: Sunday Night Chaos at Downtown Bars

There's just something kind of shady and despicable about a TV news crew documenting underage drinking at bars. It's not news. On the other hand, KSTP is barely a step up from the tabloid-level Fox 9.