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Old 11-18-2012, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities
5,833 posts, read 7,681,567 times
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There's ALWAYS going to be someplace that's inconvenient from a fixed location, but some locations are more likely to be convenient to a wider range of places than others. To argue otherwise is to argue that all points are an equal distance or travel time from each other, and we know that cannot be true. If point B lies mid way on a line connecting points A and C, it will take longer to travel from A to C than from A to B or B to C.

Unless, of course, we are talking at traveling faster than the speed of light in which case time and space become altered.

Last edited by Glenfield; 11-18-2012 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:21 PM
 
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Northfield is 39 miles from my house, about the distance from Rosemount to Maple Grove (slightly less, actually). But if I lived farther out in a different direction, say Coon Rapids, Northfield would be about 63 miles (or Maple Grove to Northfield is about 60). And while I think Northfield is lovely and there are some really great jobs there, there aren't all that many of them. Of course some of the Northfield jobs -- let's say you land that elusive tenure-track professor position -- are also good enough that people will relocate for them. But for most people, I don't think the limited number of jobs in distant edges of the metro area or small towns/cities that are potentially within commuting distance, are a major consideration.

Again, there may be lots of reasons to move to an outer suburb. But central location for the metro Twin Cities' jobs is not one of them. Whether or not that matters is going to depend on the person.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:11 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,185,650 times
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Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
Northfield is 39 miles from my house, about the distance from Rosemount to Maple Grove (slightly less, actually). But if I lived farther out in a different direction, say Coon Rapids, Northfield would be about 63 miles (or Maple Grove to Northfield is about 60). And while I think Northfield is lovely and there are some really great jobs there, there aren't all that many of them. Of course some of the Northfield jobs -- let's say you land that elusive tenure-track professor position -- are also good enough that people will relocate for them. But for most people, I don't think the limited number of jobs in distant edges of the metro area or small towns/cities that are potentially within commuting distance, are a major consideration.

Again, there may be lots of reasons to move to an outer suburb. But central location for the metro Twin Cities' jobs is not one of them. Whether or not that matters is going to depend on the person.
Again, 39 miles through city streets takes a heck of a lot longer than 39 miles on a freeway--something you just can't seem to grasp....

If I got a job in Maple Grove, I would just relocate....same difference...but then again, I wouldn't look at jobs in Maple Grove unless I had to.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
10,244 posts, read 16,323,801 times
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Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
If I got a job in Maple Grove, I would just relocate....same difference...but then again, I wouldn't look at jobs in Maple Grove unless I had to.
Thanks for proving my point. Meanwhile where I currently live I would be perfectly open to and wouldn't have to relocate to accept a job in a place like Maple Grove, or Eden Prairie, or Fridley, or Woodbury, etc. etc. All in all, living where I'm living provides me with a sound and reasonable commute to over 90% of the concentration of jobs in the Twin Cities metro area. Yes, there are probably fringe areas in the way outer suburbs where the time and gas consumption would force me to consider relocation, but good jobs are also sparse in these areas.

And if you're going to go with Northfield as your counter-argument, how about we add St. Cloud, Mankato and Rochester to the mix? I don't consider any of these places to be part of the Twin Cities metro area and thus any jobs located in these areas wouldn't even appear in a job search. If I ever received a once-in-a-lifetime job offer in any of these places I would either relocate or negotiate for 50%+ telecommuter status.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Again, 39 miles through city streets takes a heck of a lot longer than 39 miles on a freeway--something you just can't seem to grasp....

If I got a job in Maple Grove, I would just relocate....same difference...but then again, I wouldn't look at jobs in Maple Grove unless I had to.
Who said anything about city streets? Perhaps you are fuzzy on Minneapolis boundaries, but we do have freeways here. We also have city streets. Same as in the 'burbs. You can get on a freeway and drive to Maple Grove. I'm sure you can do it somehow using only city streets, but that wouldn't be typical. (but then, I'm sure you can also do it only via city streets coming from Rosemount, too, although in both cases it would, as you note, take you far longer than taking the freeway. I just don't understand why you assume that only suburban residents drive on freeways.)

I wouldn't look for a job in Maple Grove unless I had to, either, but I have a far greater number of jobs within, say, a 5 to 10 mile radius of my house than you do if you live on the outer edges of the metro area.

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why this is even a question worthy of debate. You live in a more central location, you have closer proximity to more jobs. That's a fact. Now whether or not one thinks that matters is a matter of opinion. After all, you only need one job, and maybe the benefits of living in exurbia (or a town outside of the metro area, or wherever) make up for any potential lost opportunities on that front.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:41 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,185,650 times
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Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
Who said anything about city streets? Perhaps you are fuzzy on Minneapolis boundaries, but we do have freeways here. We also have city streets. Same as in the 'burbs. You can get on a freeway and drive to Maple Grove. I'm sure you can do it somehow using only city streets, but that wouldn't be typical. (but then, I'm sure you can also do it only via city streets coming from Rosemount, too, although in both cases it would, as you note, take you far longer than taking the freeway. I just don't understand why you assume that only suburban residents drive on freeways.)

I wouldn't look for a job in Maple Grove unless I had to, either, but I have a far greater number of jobs within, say, a 5 to 10 mile radius of my house than you do if you live on the outer edges of the metro area.

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why this is even a question worthy of debate. You live in a more central location, you have closer proximity to more jobs. That's a fact. Now whether or not one thinks that matters is a matter of opinion. After all, you only need one job, and maybe the benefits of living in exurbia (or a town outside of the metro area, or wherever) make up for any potential lost opportunities on that front.
The point was discussing working in downtown Minneapolis...it can take 20 minutes to get from an exit ramp to your office building in downtown, that is the point (heck, one snow storm a couple years ago it took me 2 1/2 HOURS to get from 5th street exit off 94 to the bus depot). With the lights and traffic living in or near Minneapolis does not give you any advantage, nor does taking the bus since they have to stop at the lights too. Add in waiting for the light rail, etc. and it is NOT faster to live in and work in Minneapolis. Since you don't drive, it isn't something you experience or I guess, understand. Being "central" is relative. If you look at a map, St. Paul is more central in the metro than Minneapolis and again, most of the suburbs are more "central" based on commute times to other suburbs where MOST of the jobs are in the metro-not Minneapolis.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
10,244 posts, read 16,323,801 times
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Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
I guess I'm having trouble understanding why this is even a question worthy of debate. You live in a more central location, you have closer proximity to more jobs. That's a fact.
I agree with this 100%, there really is no debate here. With the central location and access to various freeways, city streets and public transportation there is no question that my home is in a prime location to handle a huge number of commute and travel possibilities. I really could not ask for anything better and it is for that reason that I have no reason to look to move elsewhere outside of relocation out of state.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities
5,833 posts, read 7,681,567 times
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Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
The point was discussing working in downtown Minneapolis...it can take 20 minutes to get from an exit ramp to your office building in downtown, that is the point (heck, one snow storm a couple years ago it took me 2 1/2 HOURS to get from 5th street exit off 94 to the bus depot). With the lights and traffic living in or near Minneapolis does not give you any advantage, nor does taking the bus since they have to stop at the lights too.
I work in downtown Minneapolis and you grossly exaggerate the traffic situation there.

Look, I know you've got your heels dug in on this one, but just leave it alone now. You have your opinion and the rest of us have another. Let's leave it at that.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Columbus OH
1,606 posts, read 3,334,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
The point was discussing working in downtown Minneapolis...it can take 20 minutes to get from an exit ramp to your office building in downtown, that is the point (heck, one snow storm a couple years ago it took me 2 1/2 HOURS to get from 5th street exit off 94 to the bus depot). With the lights and traffic living in or near Minneapolis does not give you any advantage, nor does taking the bus since they have to stop at the lights too. Add in waiting for the light rail, etc. and it is NOT faster to live in and work in Minneapolis. Since you don't drive, it isn't something you experience or I guess, understand. Being "central" is relative. If you look at a map, St. Paul is more central in the metro than Minneapolis and again, most of the suburbs are more "central" based on commute times to other suburbs where MOST of the jobs are in the metro-not Minneapolis.
While it can take 20 minutes, it can also take much less time too. I worked in downtown Mpls for about 20 years. I parked at the Leamington Ramp, which was about a 1 to 2 minute drive from the I-35W exit ramp. Over the years my office ranged from Kinnard Finacial Center to The Rand Tower. My walking time ranged from two minutes to maybe twelve minutes. So for me, my typical range was five to ten minutes. I had flexibility in starting times though so I would typically arrive at work around 9 and leave after 5:30, so that helped too. When I did leave during rush hour, i liked the fact that there were lots of alternative routes to go home that didn't require driving on the freeway. It was easier to drive down 3rd Avenue South to 26th street, than get stuck on 35W.

One more point: I've looked at a map of the Twin Cities many, many times. You're the first person to ever suggest that St. paul had a more central location than Minneapolis. In terms of both population and employment base, I've always heard that the central point in the Twin Cities was located immediately east of downtown Minneapolis.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:40 AM
 
1,816 posts, read 3,019,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
The point was discussing working in downtown Minneapolis...it can take 20 minutes to get from an exit ramp to your office building in downtown, that is the point (heck, one snow storm a couple years ago it took me 2 1/2 HOURS to get from 5th street exit off 94 to the bus depot). With the lights and traffic living in or near Minneapolis does not give you any advantage, nor does taking the bus since they have to stop at the lights too. Add in waiting for the light rail, etc. and it is NOT faster to live in and work in Minneapolis. Since you don't drive, it isn't something you experience or I guess, understand. Being "central" is relative. If you look at a map, St. Paul is more central in the metro than Minneapolis and again, most of the suburbs are more "central" based on commute times to other suburbs where MOST of the jobs are in the metro-not Minneapolis.
While I don't think that was the original point, it has certainly morphed into that.

While I don't envy driving into downtown during rush hour (see my last post where I laid out how easy it would be to avoid most of the bad traffic), it rarely takes very long at all to get from an entrance point downtown to wherever the parking ramp would be. Having driven through downtown during rush hour many times (including my daily commute), traffic just isn't that heavy. Sure, it's busy, but there's not exactly gridlock. Traffic flows.

Now, where there might be more choke points that includes waiting is--hold your breath on this one--the freeway entrances/exits. And overwhelmingly, the people using these to get into town are not Minneapolitans. They're suburbanites. Most Minneapolitans who drive downtown take city streets. In fact, if you work downtown and want to drive, you'd probably be better off living in the city as local arteries probably aren't much slower than the freeway. I could go from my house to a ramp downtown in less than 10 minutes. But, thanks to my location, whenever I've had work downtown, I've always been able to quickly bus. Why have the hassle of driving (the same restrictions on waiting for public transportation that "slows down" living in Minneapolis would be equally applicable to anyone who using express buses into downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul; after all, they have to wait for the bus, too!).

I'm assuming when you say central and refer to St. Paul, you are referring to the geography (thanks largely to how the city boundaries are shaped). After all, St. Paul boasts fewer jobs. Nobody is about to claim the east metro is the economic powerhouse of the area. But that's a moot point anyway because living in St. Paul would probably net the same benefits as living in Minneapolis (in the middle of metro, plenty of local streets and freeway access around metro). Actually, in some ways, if you lived in a nice neighborhood in western St. Paul, you'd have the advantage of being in the core and equidistant between the two downtowns!

Really though, the biggest takeaway (that you admitted to) is that if you want to stay in one location that is the least sensitive to job changes, then staying near (but not necessarily in) the core is ideal. If you have a job and it's going to stay and you like the fringe 'burbs...go for it!
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