Downtown Bikers - What is wrong with the bike trail? (Minneapolis: transportation, design)

[dravogadro]

Originally Posted by xandrex

When I used to bike to class at the U every day (or at least until the snow fell and the bus looked like a more comfy option ), pretty much everyone in our long procession of bikes followed all of the standard rules.
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Okay, I am sorry but . I think the U is the worst place to ride a bike....not only are the cyclists clueless but so are the pedestrians and operators of motorized vehicles.

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by dravogadro

Okay, I am sorry but . I think the U is the worst place to ride a bike....not only are the cyclists clueless but so are the pedestrians and operators of motorized vehicles.

In an area filled with people who have to bike, you'll certainly get your share of clueless bikers (and pedestrians and drivers), but an overwhelming majority of students are self-interested in not being killed by drivers. I'm always surprised at how well many students can handle the rules of the road.

The bigger issue around the U is that it's very congested in general.

[minneapolis612]

It seems that this question has snowballed into a larger topic..

Thanks for the feedback. I understand some of the reasoning. An unkept bike path and slow speed limit make sense as to why some choose to take the road instead of the path. Something I have to get used to I guess.

[laxster]

But what about in the suburbs? Shoreview has many bike trails along aside main roads where the speed limit is 45+. Why put yourself in dangers way on local arterial roads?

[dravogadro]

I seldom ride in Shoreview but I can speak from other suburban riding experiences. My example will be the path that parallels Pilot Knob Road.

Intersections are where the highest probability is for getting into a crash on a bicycle. Being on the path (or glorified sidewalk) forces you to cross these intersections in a place where drivers aren't looking for you. I have had people not stop for me when I am walking through a crosswalk so I doubt they will see me when I am going more than 10mph. Even if a driver looks, by the time the car is making the turn, I may have arrived at the intersection, probably scaring the bejezus out of the driver.

Now if you ride at slower speeds, sure, take the path. I do when I am going 10mph or so. But if I am pushing 15-20mph, I am going to keep slamming on my brakes because I have to make sure that 1) no one is turning into me at these intersections 2) I don't wipe out because, generally, the interface between the road and the sidewalk is typically in terrible shape.

If I am in the road, someone likely has plenty of room to pass me and we both see each other and it is all good. I mean, it's the suburbs, aren't all the lanes 20 ft wide??

[Kayekaye]

Originally Posted by xandrex

I don't know what world you live in, but my 78-year-old grandpa still has a bike and can use it. People in other countries who are very old can bike.

I guess I don't really see what your point is. We're not supposed to bike because our population is aging and it snows and some people are physically disabled?

I live in your world, MN. Very funny. I will try to explain it to you again. No I didn't say you were not suppose to bike, I said, SOME people are not able to bike for various reasons and the attitudes of SOME bikers are very self righteous, cars are evil, bikes are holy. I don't agree with that. To think that way is very childish, and not possible for SOME people. I'm very glad your aging grandparent is still biking, but not all people can do that, he is very simply one of the few. Where are your stats concerning other countries aged bike riding population to support your statement. It would appear that those who do bike in other countries do so primarily because of economics, most don't own cars and have the infrastructure to support car usage. I hope this clarifies things for you.

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by Kayekaye

I live in your world, MN. Very funny. I will try to explain it to you again. No I didn't say you were not suppose to bike, I said, SOME people are not able to bike for various reasons and the attitudes of SOME bikers are very self righteous, cars are evil, bikes are holy. I don't agree with that. To think that way is very childish, and not possible for SOME people. I'm very glad your aging grandparent is still biking, but not all people can do that, he is very simply one of the few. Where are your stats concerning other countries aged bike riding population to support your statement. It would appear that those who do bike in other countries do so primarily because of economics, most don't own cars and have the infrastructure to support car usage. I hope this clarifies things for you.

What countries are you referring to? I'm admittedly most familiar with European countries, but they have excellent roads and infrastructure, have wealthy citizens, and many people still also own cars. Check out Copenhagen, for example. (including this interesting article, complete with interview with an 83 year old biker: http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160386...s-for-cyclists)

I guess I'm still missing the point; not all people can bike, for various reasons. I think we all acknowledge that fact. But not everyone can drive (including many people as they grow older) for various reasons. That's why it's so important that our transportation system be designed to accommodate multiple transportation modes. There's no reason that cars and bikes can't peacefully coexist within the same society.

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by Kayekaye

I live in your world, MN. Very funny. I will try to explain it to you again. No I didn't say you were not suppose to bike, I said, SOME people are not able to bike for various reasons and the attitudes of SOME bikers are very self righteous, cars are evil, bikes are holy. I don't agree with that. To think that way is very childish, and not possible for SOME people. I'm very glad your aging grandparent is still biking, but not all people can do that, he is very simply one of the few. Where are your stats concerning other countries aged bike riding population to support your statement. It would appear that those who do bike in other countries do so primarily because of economics, most don't own cars and have the infrastructure to support car usage. I hope this clarifies things for you.

This post doesn't clarify anything because it still doesn't get at what your point is. I understand not everyone can bike (but let's be serious...many seniors are still able to get on a bike...not everyone is a cripple once they hit 55). I also understand that some bikers think cars are the worst thing ever (I'll add that many drivers think cars are holy and bikes are pure evil).

But what exactly is the point of saying this? Should we not be investing in bike infrastructure simply because older people cannot bike? Or because there are some bikers who think they're better than cars we should outlaw bikes? Nobody will force you (or grandma!) onto two wheels simply because the infrastructure is there. I certainly am not forced into a wheelchair and using the ramp just because the Americans with Disabilities Act mandates accessibility.

Many countries bike by choice, not because they're poor. As UU pointed out, Copenhagen has an enormous amount of bikers: 58 percent use a bike daily for short trips and 37 percent commute to work daily. Only about 29 percent of them own a car. Of course, gas and general automobile taxes are higher in Europe, but considering the fact that Denmark has the 8th highest GDP per capita (that beats the US) and 20th highest GDP in purchasing power (not far below the US), it's certainly not for lack of money. An article I found (http://www.slate.com/articles/health...nmark_has.html) reported on a survey where over half of bikers do it because it's the quickest and easiest way to get around.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by xandrex

Many countries bike by choice, not because they're poor. As UU pointed out, Copenhagen has an enormous amount of bikers: 58 percent use a bike daily for short trips and 37 percent commute to work daily. Only about 29 percent of them own a car. Of course, gas and general automobile taxes are higher in Europe, but considering the fact that Denmark has the 8th highest GDP per capita (that beats the US) and 20th highest GDP in purchasing power (not far below the US), it's certainly not for lack of money. An article I found (Green wave: Can the U.S. embrace biking the way Denmark has? - Slate Magazine) reported on a survey where over half of bikers do it because it's the quickest and easiest way to get around.

Most European cities are much older and denser than US cities, being designed and built at a time when the automobile did not yet exist. It makes sense that people can bike in areas where more locations are available within a short distance.

The Twin Cities metro is one of the most bike-friendly metros in the US. Try biking down here sometime.

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Most European cities are much older and denser than US cities, being designed and built at a time when the automobile did not yet exist. It makes sense that people can bike in areas where more locations are available within a short distance.

The Twin Cities metro is one of the most bike-friendly metros in the US. Try biking down here sometime.

While many cities in Europe are more dense, I saw plenty when I visited that really didn't look much different from American cities.

My point had little to do with how close things are (plenty of cities, including Minneapolis, have areas where everything is close by) and more about the fact that there are places in Europe where people ride their bikes a lot. Kayekaye suggested in the last post that this was because it was a poor country (I assume we're thinking China, especially pre-1990s?), but Europe is incredibly wealthy. People bike not because they have to, but because they can. And that includes the young and old...so we can't say that there are too many Americans who can't because of their age. Some people will never be able to bike, so will be biking until they're in their 80s.