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Old 06-17-2013, 05:29 PM
 
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I think you need to look at a map...it would answer all of your questions...
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by glendog View Post
I hear "cities" a lot of the time in Duluth as well but in Bayfield or further away from the cities and certainly out West in Seattle Portland it is 100% Minneapolis all the time, and never ever Saint Paul. I guess you've nailed my whole point, West St Paul isn't really a suburb in reality, only in name, it is absolutely very very 100% urban where I am on the North End, up to Butler Avenue. It is as urban as anywhere in Saint Paul proper and far more urban than St. Paul neighborhoods that are out 8 miles or so from downtown. That's my whole point. It shouldn't be a separate city and certainly isn't suburban at all here compared to say Point Douglas road which is almost 10 miles out of downtown but is technically still in St Paul but is actually totally rural compared my neighborhood, which is just 1 1/2 miles out of downtown. Everyone who visits me says "man you live right in the city, in downtown man...." Yet I am in a suburb not in Saint Paul? It's totally wrong and bizarre. The City of West St Paul treats us on the border with Saint Paul like West Siders as well so I think they'd be ok with letting us go with Ramsey County.
Not sure about the naming issue Xandrex but why is it a naming issue? I think because the reality is West St Paul really is just a neighborhood of Saint Paul and shouldn't be a separate city at all. Same for South St Paul again for all the reasons I've already mentioned. It is a fact that the original West St. Paul which is the current West Side neighborhood a block away from me in West St. Paul was annexed by Saint Paul so should the current city of West St. Paul. Annex away Saint Paul!!
I don't think you read into my post correctly. But I wanted to make a few additional points/replies:

Municipal boundaries are largely superficial. Sometimes we use real, tangible borders...like the southern part of Minneapolis being separated from St. Paul by the Mississippi River. Other times we use completely arbitrary limits...like the border between the northeastern Minneapolis (for the intent of this, I'm talking about areas with streets labeled NE and SE) and St. Paul, where it's mostly 33rd Ave SE and Stinson Blvd. People just across the border in St. Paul are closer to downtown Minneapolis than they are downtown St. Paul, so why isn't that area part of Minneapolis? Staten Island is incredibly suburban in character and closer to New Jersey, yet it is part of New York. Why? The reason is that boundaries are arbitrary.

It seems like your issue is that you want to live in your current area but want to have the ability to say you live in St. Paul. I understand arguments of combining municipalities for efficiency, but that's not really your argument. Yours is completely proximity and the fact that your area of the suburb you live in is more "urban" than some parts of the inner city. But as we see with Staten Island, being an inner city doesn't mean that you necessarily have to be completely urban in character.

When I mentioned that naming is an "issue", I wasn't actually calling it an issue. However, I did mean that I think it is tangled into why we're talking about this at all. So let's us an example. Let's say that St. Louis Park wasn't named St. Louis Park. Instead, it was West Minneapolis. By all standards, West Minneapolis is fairly urban in nature compared to many suburbs, especially near its border with Minneapolis. It has incredible proximity to Uptown, which is really Minneapolis's second downtown/destination. In fact, West Minneapolis is closer to Uptown (and downtown!) than many neighborhoods in actual Minneapolis (in just about any direction: North, Northeast, Southwest, and South). So why isn't West Minneapolis part of Minneapolis? The answer: because it isn't. And we don't often think about it because its name doesn't reference Minneapolis at all. If West St. Paul were called Robert City or Mississippi Park (just throwing names out there), would the connection to St. Paul and the theoretical talks of annexation be happening? Possibly, but probably not in the same way. After all, there really is something in a name.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by xandrex View Post
When I mentioned that naming is an "issue", I wasn't actually calling it an issue. However, I did mean that I think it is tangled into why we're talking about this at all. So let's us an example. Let's say that St. Louis Park wasn't named St. Louis Park. Instead, it was West Minneapolis. By all standards, West Minneapolis is fairly urban in nature compared to many suburbs, especially near its border with Minneapolis. It has incredible proximity to Uptown, which is really Minneapolis's second downtown/destination. In fact, West Minneapolis is closer to Uptown (and downtown!) than many neighborhoods in actual Minneapolis (in just about any direction: North, Northeast, Southwest, and South). So why isn't West Minneapolis part of Minneapolis? The answer: because it isn't. And we don't often think about it because its name doesn't reference Minneapolis at all. If West St. Paul were called Robert City or Mississippi Park (just throwing names out there), would the connection to St. Paul and the theoretical talks of annexation be happening? Possibly, but probably not in the same way. After all, there really is something in a name.
Well, even though it's not West Minneapolis, I do kind of think that St. Louis Park as well as Golden Valley should be annexed/consolidated. Government fragmentation is a bit of a waste of money, resources, and representation.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asderfut View Post
Well, even though it's not West Minneapolis, I do kind of think that St. Louis Park as well as Golden Valley should be annexed/consolidated. Government fragmentation is a bit of a waste of money, resources, and representation.
If I lived in SLP or GV, I'd be fighting that tooth and nail. The property tax rates in Minneapolis are terrible, and the level of services much worse.

Other than a city annexing part or all of a township (which is unincorporated and thus has little say), annexation isn't common in Minnesota. I believe the residents of both cities must approve it in a referendum. Norwood and Young America merged, as did Elko and New Market, but Long Lake did not approve a merger with Orono.

This isn't like Kansas City where the city spreads out for miles and miles into rural areas, or Indianapolis or Jacksonville where the city annexed the entire county. It doesn't happen here. Where it should happen is with all the tiny cities out by Lake Minnetonka (Deephaven, Greenwood, Tonka Bay, Spring Park etc.) or with oddities like Hilltop, Landfall, Gem Lake etc.
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Old 06-20-2013, 02:06 PM
 
134 posts, read 179,161 times
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Originally Posted by ocsid View Post
This isn't like Kansas City where the city spreads out for miles and miles into rural areas, or Indianapolis or Jacksonville where the city annexed the entire county. It doesn't happen here. Where it should happen is with all the tiny cities out by Lake Minnetonka (Deephaven, Greenwood, Tonka Bay, Spring Park etc.) or with oddities like Hilltop, Landfall, Gem Lake etc.
What I was advocating wasn't the kind of random consolidation that occurs in (relatively) tiny metros like Indianapolis and Kansas City, but something where a contiguous urban environment and community is represented under a single governing body. City-County consolidation wouldn't make a scrap of sense in Hennepin County, when the northwest corner of the county is still farmland. Maybe Ramsey County would be a good place for something like that, where at least everything is developed, even the northern and southern halves are pretty disparate.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:00 AM
 
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You need a map
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asderfut View Post
I think the greatest impediment to this kind of consolidation is that St. Paul is the lower half of Ramsey County, so most nearby cities are over the county border. West and South St. Paul are both in Dakota County, St. Paul Park is in Washington County, and while North St. Paul is in Ramsey County, it's on the other side of Maplewood, another municipality.

On a separate note, I wholly support municipal consolidation. The joint issues of a small tax base and the mentality that issues to be addressed by a city government end at the municipal border greatly hamper actions to benefit the residents.
This is an outstanding post. We are not talking about annexation, which is the incorporation of land into a city, but the consolidation of existing cities. The process is fairly complex and must none initiated by both cities. I suspect that the issue of the different counties would be a big problem. I am not sure whether or not cities can cross county lines.

http://www.lmc.org/media/document/1/chapter02.pdf
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:40 PM
 
2,252 posts, read 1,297,216 times
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Originally Posted by Glenfield View Post
This is an outstanding post. We are not talking about annexation, which is the incorporation of land into a city, but the consolidation of existing cities. The process is fairly complex and must none initiated by both cities. I suspect that the issue of the different counties would be a big problem. I am not sure whether or not cities can cross county lines.

http://www.lmc.org/media/document/1/chapter02.pdf
st cloud comes to mind as crossing county lines
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Old 08-23-2014, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,574 posts, read 8,325,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenfield View Post
This is an outstanding post. We are not talking about annexation, which is the incorporation of land into a city, but the consolidation of existing cities. The process is fairly complex and must none initiated by both cities. I suspect that the issue of the different counties would be a big problem. I am not sure whether or not cities can cross county lines.

http://www.lmc.org/media/document/1/chapter02.pdf
Cities in Minnesota can cross county lines - and many do. A small piece of Northfield, where I live, is in Dakota County (most of it being in Rice County). And as the previous poster mentioned, there is St. Cloud, which is mostly in Stearns County but portions extend into Sherburne and Benton Counties.

Confusion may come from the fact that some states prohibit cities from spanning more than one county. California is one example.
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Old 08-23-2014, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities
5,832 posts, read 6,769,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
Cities in Minnesota can cross county lines - and many do. A small piece of Northfield, where I live, is in Dakota County (most of it being in Rice County). And as the previous poster mentioned, there is St. Cloud, which is mostly in Stearns County but portions extend into Sherburne and Benton Counties.

Confusion may come from the fact that some states prohibit cities from spanning more than one county. California is one example.
Fair enough.
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