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How can I debate with a person who thinks $4700 is a low deductible?
Then allow me to explain. Summary: you don't understand the tax law. I hope you are not a financial planner or an accountant because you are proving to me how limited your understanding is on this topic. My medical premiums of $8,776 last year are factually written off on line 29 of form 1040. Labeled: "Self-employed health insurance deduction."
Do you have any more free advice?
Your PREMIUMS--I'm talking out of pocket costs for medical care--your deductible/co-payments/co-insurance...which are not deductible until they exceed 10% of your AGI, and give your past posts, I'm pretty sure that is more that $47,000 for you....or maybe you don't understand that part....
Not true---you need a new broker. Health Partners partners with Cigna and uses their national network, including AZ....
I don't completely trust brokers and I especially don't trust your advice. Too many people are wrong including yourself. Hence, I go to the source and invest an hour of my time. I called Health Partners. Of course I have health insurance in AZ but it was "out of network".
More importantly, I live in MN 8 months a year. The closest in network hospital for Health Partners is 55 miles away. If I only lived in the Twin Cities and didn't go to AZ, I would have picked them. In fact, 4 years ago I had Health Partners. See, I have switched products a couple of times. I've bench marked both products every other year.
Also you still cannot compare price exclusively by premiums and deductibles. BSBS has a roll over program. Your Q4 out of pocket gets rolled into the following year. When my son broke his arm in hockey in November, we racked up >$4700. Therefore we had a zero deductible the following year which proved to save us another deductible (broken collar bone in skiing). So to prove my self-proclaimed saaviness, USA Hockey paid all but $1000 of that $4700 deductible. Not many youth hockey players would have known that they all have a built in insurance plans. We asked (just in case) and that break helped pay for the following year break
Here is a free business lesson for you. Price, Quality, Service. Pick two of the three. It's IMPOSSIBLE to deliver 3 out of 3 (and unfortunately some companies deliver only one of the three) . So we know that Health Partner's is slightly less. That means BSBS's quality or service is better. In this case, BCBS has better service. More hospitals in network and better out-state networks. I think it's going to take some more words to get that last point across. Look at it this way... Why do you think BCBS has millions of MN members if they are overpriced and offer no better quality and service?
Either you are trying to prove how smart you are or actually trying to help me. Either way, GG, I'm not taking your tax advice, business advice, investment advice, and especially not your medical plan advice.
Your PREMIUMS--I'm talking out of pocket costs for medical care--your deductible/co-payments/co-insurance...which are not deductible until they exceed 10% of your AGI, and give your past posts, I'm pretty sure that is more that $47,000 for you....or maybe you don't understand that part....
GG. I know how to read your words. I was talking about premiums. Per a couple posts ago, go look at line 29 on your 1040 form then get back to me. I write off my premiums because how my accountant structured my business and from a conversation years ago (how and who I hire in my immediate family). I pay him handsomely to take care of that detail. So no matter how you want to correct me, I'm not taking your accounting advice. So to be clear, 100% of my premiums are deducted on line 29. If I run into an out of pocket expense, then I take that off on my HSA.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-22-2013 at 05:13 AM..
Reason: Clarification after looking at past returns.
GG. I know how to read your words. I was talking about premiums. Per a couple posts ago, go look at line 29 on your 1040 form then get back to me. I write off my premiums because how my accountant structured my business and from a conversation years ago (how and who I hire in my immediate family). I pay him handsomely to take care of that detail. So no matter how you want to correct me, I'm not taking your accounting advice. So to be clear, 100% of my premiums are deducted on line 29. If I run into an out of pocket expense, then I take that off on my HSA.
You said before that you don't HAVE an HSA that you didn't trust them and you put all of your money back into your business????? I KNOW you can deduct your premiums, never said you could not. If you don't have out of pocket costs, why on EARTH are you paying so much for a low deductible??? It makes no sense at all.
Fine, don't trust me, when did you call Health Partners? We have HP and right on our card there is a Cigna logo for out of state coverage--that is IN NETWORK unless you have an HMO--but then you won't have the Cigna logo...also HP isn't open yet, their call center hours don't open for a couple hours...
You said before that you don't HAVE an HSA that you didn't trust them and you put all of your money back into your business????? I KNOW you can deduct your premiums, never said you could not. If you don't have out of pocket costs, why on EARTH are you paying so much for a low deductible??? It makes no sense at all.
Fine, don't trust me, when did you call Health Partners? We have HP and right on our card there is a Cigna logo for out of state coverage--that is IN NETWORK unless you have an HMO--but then you won't have the Cigna logo...also HP isn't open yet, their call center hours don't open for a couple hours...
Where did I say I didn't have an HSA? You won't find those words. I said I had no interest in attempting to roll over up to $120K in HSA's over many years and assume something will be tax free in 2033. I have an HSA approved plan (USBANK) and put in the exact amount I need every year before April 15th. In and out and I take my deductions. An HSA approved plan is mandatory in what plans I would accept.
I'll look into that (Cigna) if I get time. But there has to be a different program than a base HP plan. I called them in October 2013 and I am looking at my notes. If that's the case (a better plan via "Cigna"), then the service has increased and therefore the PRICE will increase. Forgetting that, I was looking at HP site and the closest hospital is too far away. A BCBS hospital is closer. So I really don't care how many doctors are in the network. I care how close they are to me and how close a hospital is. Forgetting that, from memory, the plans were extremely close in premiums. It was a no brainer to stick with BCBS.
You do realize that people don't need to pick the same city as you or pick the same health plan as you. There are a million plus Minnesotan's who are getting "screwed" (seemingly in your book) and picking BCBS. They are extremely successful for a reason.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-22-2013 at 05:29 AM..
I KNOW you can deduct your premiums, never said you could not.
Then go re-read your words. You said "I'm talking "PREMIUMS" and you were talking about how I could save $2500 in taxes. Really? Then in my situation, how?
In my post I addressed it. In that post I explained I can write it off and I do. I write off my HSA too. So your after tax savings of an additonal $2500 you spoke earlier is bogus for my situation. I already write off premiums and my out of pocket expenses. Furthermore I said I hit my out of pocket deductibles 3 years in a row. I also explained that you cannot simply compare premiums and deductibles (BCBS Q4 rollover). A person can literally be strategic and schedule a surgery in Q4 and benifit in the following year. re-read that last sentence. That turned out to be a big deal. It's a real consideration right now as we speak (wife is contemplating getting a hysterectomy because of cramps and cysts). But I have to re-check if that pending plan (I need SOON) will have that feature as my current plan has.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-22-2013 at 05:28 AM..
Where did I say I didn't have an HSA? You won't find those words. I said I had no interest in attempting to roll over up to $120K in HSA's over many years. I have an HSA approved plan (USBANK) and put in the exact amount I need every year before April 15th. In and out and I take my deductions. An HSA approved plan is mandatory in what plans I would accept.
I'll look into that (Cigna) if I get time. But there has to be a different program than a base HP plan. I called them in October 2013 and I am looking at my notes. If that's the case (a better plan via "Cigna"), then the service has increased and therefore the PRICE will increase. Forgetting that, I was looking at HP site and the closest hospital is too far away. A BCBS hospital is closer. So I really don't care how many doctors are in the network. I care how close they are to me and how close a hospital is. Forgetting that, from memory, the plans were extremely close in premiums. It was a no brainer to stick with BCBS.
You do realize that people don't need to pick the same city as you or pick the same health plan as you. There are a million plus Minnesotan's who are getting "screwed" (seemingly in your book) and picking BCBS. They are extremely successful for a reason.
Cigna won't have a plan in MN because they don't write individual plans in MN. They partner with HP in MN and use the HP network here and HP uses the Cigna network Nationally. It's not new, it's been this way for several years. It's not "special", you just have to have an Open Access plan vs an HMO. I never said people are getting screwed. I said your high premiums are your CHOICE because you won't listen to anyone when they are telling you differently.
As for the HSA--you implied you didn't have one...especially when you had to look up info about them on Wiki
Go re-read your words. You said "I'm talking "PREMIUMS". In my post I addressed it. In that post I explained I can write it off and I do. I write off my HSA too. So your after tax savings of $2500 you spoke earlier is bogus for my situation. I already write off premiums and my out of pocket expenses. Furthermore I said I hit my out of pocket deductibles 3 times maybe this is now the 4th time).
I was reiterating what YOU said about deducting your premiums....
Cigna won't have a plan in MN because they don't write individual plans in MN. They partner with HP in MN and use the HP network here and HP uses the Cigna network Nationally. It's not new, it's been this way for several years. It's not "special", you just have to have an Open Access plan vs an HMO. I never said people are getting screwed. I said your high premiums are your CHOICE because you won't listen to anyone when they are telling you differently.
As for the HSA--you implied you didn't have one...especially when you had to look up info about them on Wiki
I said from day 1 that premiums are HIGHER because of Obamacare (dismantling the lower risk pool). That was my only point. I said small groups are immune for a year. Watch those rates take a nice hike as well and we will let the working bees be P.O.ed in the note-so-distant future. That day is coming.
No matter what MY choice was in 2013, my 2014 plan would have gone up substantially. It could have been with HP or BCBS. It's not like the actuaries at BCBS decided to nail their clients. As you should know, they have a cost plus business model. Hence, in my pool, their costs went up a lot and therefore my premiums went up a lot. It didn't matter I was with BCBS. I submit the ONLY premiums that are going down are higher risk folks and those with government subsidies. The rest of Minnesotans are going up. That is why there is so much outrage. Your President forgot to make it clear when he said "you can keep your same plan and your same doctor" that your rates are going to go up 20+%. So he was either ignorant or he lied. I pick the latter. Young people are not entering the pool. They are paying the fines. The fine is too low, young people are punting on entering the plan unless they make so little and the governemt pays nearly all of the premiums. Healthcare costs are not coming down (as an aggregate), they are going to go UP or the debt ceiling is going to go up a trillion more a year. The broken system is now MORE broken.
That all said, I bet the farm that a Cigna/HP open plan is going to be within 10% of BCBS. The only question is who is more or less. I won't assume BCBS is necessarily more. Every single time I bench marked all products, the plans were very competitive year after year. It wasn't worth having a nurse come out and check everything again (past tense). I did see that HP was a little more $$'s. At 1st glance I was excited. When I called, they said "AZ is out of network". Now. If there is a way (and I have no reason to doubt that Cigna/HP will in fact cover in network AZ situations), it won't be available for MNsure, it WILL cost more than a HP plan offered though MNsure or "direct" MN plans. Common sense tells me that.
Re: HSA's. You were trying to school me on this great tax advantage. I pointed to Wiki simply to say that the 5 minute read can make anyone an expert. My broker isn't inept. It's an extremely easy tax law. I chose to plow my $$'s in other vehicles. I very much would rather take my dollars out of a HSA and into something I understand a lot more than stocks and lousy interest rates. That's in my business.
I do get rather upset when someone wants to lead in MNsure or politicians make it worse by trying to "fix" our broken medical systems and fail. This is something too important. 13,000 pages to fix something is obviously not going to make things better. It is going to make it worse.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-22-2013 at 06:00 AM..
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My medical premiums of $8,776 last year are factually written off on line 29 of form 1040. Labeled: "Self-employed health insurance deduction."
