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Really, this nonsense has to stop. The Twin Cities offer far more corporate and cultural options than Cleveland has had in decades.
More corporate options I'll give you. More cultural? That's where I disagree. The only areas Minn might surpass Cleveland in are modern art, and chorus. But in almost every other cultural area, Cleveland surpasses MN. We have better classical music, better classical art museum, arguably better theater, a more world renowned museum (Rock Hall), and equal science museums, and concert venues.
Minnesota's legacy of invention and new products is impressive, but I'd argue that Cleveland's historic legacy of invention and production is just as, if not more impressive. The traffic light, and the first arc light were invented here. Standard Oil was headquartered here. GE was headquartered here (their lighting division still is). Goodyear was HQ'd here. These Titans generated far more wealth for this area at that time than 3M, Medtronic, etc. do for Minneapolis now. Many of these companies may have gone away, or moved their production facilities, once the lifeblood of Cleveland, elsewhere, but the legacy that these companies left from their tremendous wealth is impressive. The buildings and institutions that these companies left were those that should belong to the 5th largest city in the country that we once were. The institutions and buildings have not faded, but have instead been improved. Once abandoned skyscrapers are being rehabilitated and repurposed. Our art museum has just completed a $350 Million expansion. Our theaters downtown, once slated for demolition, have been beautifully restored. There is nothing in Minneapolis that can match the beauty of the Ameritrust rotunda, the Terminal Tower, Severance Hall, Playhouse Square, or the Art Museum. All of these things were built for a city that was richer and more powerful than Minneapolis is now. That's why Minneapolis does not match up well with Cleveland on many cultural measures. As much as you'd like to think that Minneapolis is the future and Cleveland is the past, our past was bright enough to build a city that still stands tall even in the face of economic decline, and to spark people's imaginations about what could be again.
More corporate options I'll give you. More cultural? That's where I disagree. The only areas Minn might surpass Cleveland in are modern art, and chorus. But in almost every other cultural area, Cleveland surpasses MN. We have better classical music, better classical art museum, arguably better theater, a more world renowned museum (Rock Hall), and equal science museums, and concert venues.
Minnesota's legacy of invention and new products is impressive, but I'd argue that Cleveland's historic legacy of invention and production is just as, if not more impressive. The traffic light, and the first arc light were invented here. Standard Oil was headquartered here. GE was headquartered here (their lighting division still is). Goodyear was HQ'd here. These Titans generated far more wealth for this area at that time than 3M, Medtronic, etc. do for Minneapolis now. Many of these companies may have gone away, or moved their production facilities, once the lifeblood of Cleveland, elsewhere, but the legacy that these companies left from their tremendous wealth is impressive. The buildings and institutions that these companies left were those that should belong to the 5th largest city in the country that we once were. The institutions and buildings have not faded, but have instead been improved. Once abandoned skyscrapers are being rehabilitated and repurposed. Our art museum has just completed a $350 Million expansion. Our theaters downtown, once slated for demolition, have been beautifully restored. There is nothing in Minneapolis that can match the beauty of the Ameritrust rotunda, the Terminal Tower, Severance Hall, Playhouse Square, or the Art Museum. All of these things were built for a city that was richer and more powerful than Minneapolis is now. That's why Minneapolis does not match up well with Cleveland on many cultural measures. As much as you'd like to think that Minneapolis is the future and Cleveland is the past, our past was bright enough to build a city that still stands tall even in the face of economic decline, and to spark people's imaginations about what could be again.
None of this has to do with the fact that Kevin Love is going to a smaller city after dogging the Twin Cities for being too small. Also, Cleveland has been a city 20 years longer than Minnesota has even been a state, so of course it will have more history.
None of this has to do with the fact that Kevin Love is going to a smaller city after dogging the Twin Cities for being too small. Also, Cleveland has been a city 20 years longer than Minnesota has even been a state, so of course it will have more history.
Sorry, the guy calling Cleveland a dump, and the people saying Minneapolis has superior culture to Cleveland kind of derailed me. These things don't have to do with Kevin Love, well not directly anyway. Lebron came back here in part because in Cleveland's pain of having fallen from such great stature in the eyes of the nation, we desire to do something to change the common perception of our city, such as a sports championship. Lebron, being a native, recognizes how much that would mean to us. So Lebron came back here in part because of Cleveland's history and legacy, and Kevin Love is coming here because of Lebron. So in a very indirect way, these things do have to do with Kevin Love coming to Cleveland.
This also-ran is hosting the 2016 RNC, we're also home to a vastly superior orchestra and art museum than Minneapolis. Additionally, we have iconic things in our city, that are recognized all over the world: the Rock and Roll HOF, the Cleveland Clinic, and the Cleveland Orchestra, and the Terminal Tower (once the tallest building in the US outside of NYC). What exactly is iconic about Minneapolis? Minneapolis may be larger than Cleveland, but Cleveland has a higher global profile, and more global name-recognition.
St. Paul across the river from Minneapolis hosted the 2008 RNC beating you to the punch by eight years. Congrats nonetheless!
Iconic in Minneapolis/St. Paul:
Natural iconic features:
*Chain of lakes across south Minneapolis connected by trail system and a major reason for top parks rating for the region and city.
*Minnehaha Falls & Park: 50+ foot waterfall in city limits
*Mississippi River
*One of only four National Wildlife refuges in a large urban area: Minnesota Valley NWR along the Minnesota River; just a short drive south of Minneapolis city limits at the southern edge of Bloomington.
*The St. Croix River is a federally protected river on the east edge of the metro with historic Stillwater along it.
*Foshay Tower in the early days: it was built in 1929 and remains there with the W Hotel & lounge today and Manny's, a popular and award winning steakhouse.
*IDS tower: completed in 1973 and for a very long time was the tallest skyscraper between Chicago and the West Coast until Dallas and Houston each put up slightly taller towers. It is 792 feet tall. Terminal Tower in Cleveland is 771 feet tall.
*Weisman Art Museum with quirky design by Frank Gehry complements three others: Minneapolis Institute of Arts, Walker, & Russian Art Museum.
*Spoonbridge & Cherry sculpture at the Minneapolis Sculpture Garden.
*Basilica of St. Mary: hosts a major annual music festival.
*St. Anthony Main historic area is city's oldest with restaurants & pubs across river from downtown.
*American Swedish Institute: preserved castle with Scandinavian history, decor, food and events.
*Stone Arch Bridge across the Mississippi: pedestrian and bicycle only; no vehicles.
*Lake Harriett bandshell
*Orchestra Hall/ home of award winning Minnesota Orchestra.
*Mill City Museum & District/adjacent North Loop district
*Target Field (MN Twins); new MN Vikings stadium to be completed in 2016.
*New Guthrie Theater on the Mississppi River.
*First Avenue night club made famous by Prince in the movie "Purple Rain". Please provide the name of a Cleveland bar or nightclub that is well known nationally.
St. Paul: state capital building, Landmark Center, longest stretch of Victorian residents in USA on Summit Avenue, Grand Avenue/Cathedral Hill, Orway Performing Arts Center, Lowertown area/new ballpark for St. Paul Saints will be near there soon, Distict Del Sol, Wabasha Street Caves with events from the "mobster" era, Peanuts sculptures throughout city celebrating the late cartoonist/comic strip creator Charles Schultz (easily most popular ever in USA and in much of the world and will continue for some time).
In 2018 Minneapolis will be host to their 2nd Super Bowl game after being chosen over New Orleans!! Still zero for Cleveland.
Name recognition for Minneapolis these days (in USA or globally) is easily better or at least even with any Midwestern metro area outside of Chicago.
Suburban:
*Mall of America, Bloomington (USA's largest and will become larger)
*Chanhassen Dinner Theaters, Chanhassen (USA's largest dinner theater).
*Fort Snelling: just a short drive southeast of the MSP airport, this historic fort from the frontier/territorial days offers tours with costumed guides.
Just beyond the suburbs/exurbs:
*Mayo Clinic, Rochester about 80 miles away. It easily has as much name recognition as the Cleveland Clinic; both are excellent and rank as two of the nation's finest by most rankings. The Mayo has also established clinics in a few other Minnesota metro areas in recent years as well as in Florida and Arizona.
Anyways, I have praised you in the past for your pride in Cleveland and occasionally corrected you on exaggerations about Minneapolis as well. Cleveland has a lot of which to be proud and you present a good case for it as someone else already mentioned.
Back to basketball: It was impressive that Cleveland was able to draw Love's interest when Golden State (near San Francisco) had wanted him. I am sure Lebron helped, but Cleveland still had to work out a deal the T-Wolves would accept. I think the trade is a win-win. LeBron James and Kevin Love will be a formidable offensive force for other teams to match up against. Minnesota also benefited and Wiggins will be a great addition. At this point, I concede that Cleveland would have a better chance to make it to an NBA final. I frankly believe most Timberwolves fans would settle for just having winning seasons!
After all, the fans always have their WNBA two time champion Lynx to fall back on if the T-Wolves can't improve right away! Hopefully, both the Cavaliers and T-Wolves will improve their records as a result.
As to the post you initially responded to, if Love had ended up in Memphis or Oklahoma City, I am reasonably certain a similar comment about those metro's sizes would have been made.
Last edited by chessgeek; 08-10-2014 at 03:36 PM..
I think you should look at who put down whose city first. It's not that I hate Minneapolis, I just hate the attitude of superiority that many people there have. It's very off-putting, especially for a place that doesn't have very much to show for itself in terms of cultural relevance.
Actually I think that the Twin Cities does very well for itself in terms of arts and culture.
The buildings and institutions that these companies left were those that should belong to the 5th largest city in the country that we once were.
And now the 29th largest metro. That's all I'm saying. "Big City" means something. Cleveland's city population was 505,672 in 1990. Minneapolis' city population was 368,804.
Today, Cleveland's population is 390,928. Minneapolis' is 400,070 (in an area only 2/3 the size of Cleveland). There's an obvious trend here. Cleveland has been on the same trajectory as Detroit. Cleveland lost almost 115,000 people in that time. Minneapolis gained over 31,000 people.
Cleveland's metro in 1990 was 2,102,000. In 2013 it was 2,064,000. A loss. MSP's census in 1990 was 2,539,000. In 2013 it was 3,459,000. A big gain.
Once again I'll say that nearly every time I've been in Cleveland I've enjoyed it. I don't hate the city at all.
Last edited by Astron1000; 08-10-2014 at 10:58 PM..
And now the 29th largest metro. That's all I'm saying. "Big City" means something. Cleveland's city population was 505,672 in 1990. Minneapolis' city population was 368,804.
Today, Cleveland's population is 390,928. Minneapolis' is 400,070 (in an area only 2/3 the size of Cleveland). There's an obvious trend here. Cleveland has been on the same trajectory as Detroit. Cleveland lost almost 115,000 people in that time. Minneapolis gained over 31,000 people.
Cleveland's metro in 1990 was 2,102,000. In 2013 it was 2,064,000. A loss. MSP's census in 1990 was 2,539,000. In 2013 it was 3,459,000. A big gain.
Once again I'll say that nearly every time I've been in Cleveland I've enjoyed it. I don't hate the city at all.
Yes, but that fact alone doesn't make Cleveland "tired" or an "also ran". I really will never understand the infatuation the city-data posters have with population growth. A growing city does not necessarily mean a better city. Port au Prince is a growing city, but that doesn't mean it's a good city.
I agree with you that growth by itself is meaningless. If it were an indicator of quality then the South American cities with the biggest growth in favelas would be the best cities in the world.
But we're talking about the US. And growth means something different here. It corresponds with wealth and influence, as much as that is distasteful to me. I am NOT one of those who believe growth is the be all and end all of urbanity.
That said, higher populations typically bring more diversity in the US. The Twin Cities' rapid growth in Somalian, Hmong, Indian, Liberian and Vietnamese cultures bring offerings of food and dress that translate into fabulous restaurants and stores. There is a unique recent internationalism in the Twin Cities that plays against the very strong influence of German, Scandinavian and Central European cultures that settled here 100 years ago.
That means a more international and diverse city. With more options.
I agree with you that growth by itself is meaningless. If it were an indicator of quality then the South American cities with the biggest growth in favelas would be the best cities in the world.
But we're talking about the US. And growth means something different here. It corresponds with wealth and influence, as much as that is distasteful to me. I am NOT one of those who believe growth is the be all and end all of urbanity.
That said, higher populations typically bring more diversity in the US. The Twin Cities' rapid growth in Somalian, Hmong, Indian, Liberian and Vietnamese cultures bring offerings of food and dress that translate into fabulous restaurants and stores. There is a unique recent internationalism in the Twin Cities that plays against the very strong influence of German, Scandinavian and Central European cultures that settled here 100 years ago.
That means a more international and diverse city. With more options.
Cleveland has just as diverse, if not more diverse, culinary options as Minneapolis. Unlike Minn, most of the white population here still holds tightly to their European heritage, and there are neighborhoods and restaurants to match (Little Italy, Slavic Village, Croatians and Slovenians in North Collinwood, Polish in Parma). There is a huge Eastern European influence here, especially Polish (There's even a Cleveland Style Polka, and a Polka Hall of Fame here). We have lots of fantastic Polish, German, Croatian, Slovenian, Czech, Hungarian, Italian restaurants here. Additionally, we have a large hispanic population, and an especially large Puerto Rican one. Not to mention the chic new restaurants from top chefs, including several celebrity chefs, that are continually popping up around the city. And we have a large and growing Asia Town, with fabulous restaurants. Sorry, but CLE wins the food competition with Minni also.
Last edited by Cleverfield; 08-11-2014 at 08:56 AM..
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Cleveland has just as diverse, if not more diverse, culinary options as Minneapolis. Unlike Minn, most of the white population here still holds tightly to their European heritage, and there are neighborhoods and restaurants to match (Little Italy, Slavic Village, Croatians and Slovenians in North Collinwood, Polish in Parma). There is a huge Eastern European influence here, especially Polish (There's even a Cleveland Style Polka, and a Polka Hall of Fame here). We have lots of fantastic Polish, German, Croatian, Slovenian, Czech, Hungarian, Italian restaurants here. Additionally, we have a large hispanic population, and an especially large Puerto Rican one. Not to mention the chic new restaurants from top chefs, including several celebrity chefs, that are continually popping up around the city. And we have a large and growing Asia Town, with fabulous restaurants. Sorry, but CLE wins the food competition with Minni also.
