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The title of this thread is Ethnic Diversity, which like Race, can be used to deferentiate any two groups of people. If Minnesota was 100% white, it would still be ethnically diverse and I guaranty you that it would still be segregated along religious, cultural, class and economic lines. Would be the same with a group of 100% black, or Chinese, or Russian. Bosnia is the perfect example. Germany, an even better one.
When I moved to Minneapolis it was already ethnically diverse. When I left, there were far more Hispanics and Somalis then when I had arrived. At one point it added to my own quality of life in the sense that it offered me trivial things like a wider variety of foods to choose from to other things such as being exposed to others cultures, and appreciating them to having conversation with others that come from a place that is far more messed up then the US (which gives a very unique perspective on world affairs).
Then on the other hand, Somalis are terrible drivers. The words 'excuse me' do not exist in their language-they just barge at will which makes them rude by American standards (although perfectly acceptable social behavior to them). They generally avoid conversations with Americans (even though they can speak English) and I often times wander why they moved here in the first place (aside from obvious reasons).
The Hispanics seem to want to carve out a little piece of Latin America where ever they go, which is awesome on one hand, but on the other a majority of the older ones could seem to give a rat's behind about what country they now find themselves in and will fight becoming Americanized tooth and nail. Only the younger ones have any desire to learn English and to integrate into American culture. It just gets kind of frustrating when a very large group of people continue to live as though they were still in their native country day in and day out, especially if they refuse to interact act with you or the American community.
The title of this thread is Ethnic Diversity, which like Race, can be used to deferentiate any two groups of people. If Minnesota was 100% white, it would still be ethnically diverse and I guaranty you that it would still be segregated along religious, cultural, class and economic lines. Would be the same with a group of 100% black, or Chinese, or Russian. Bosnia is the perfect example. Germany, an even better one.
When I moved to Minneapolis it was already ethnically diverse. When I left, there were far more Hispanics and Somalis then when I had arrived. At one point it added to my own quality of life in the sense that it offered me trivial things like a wider variety of foods to choose from to other things such as being exposed to others cultures, and appreciating them to having conversation with others that come from a place that is far more messed up then the US (which gives a very unique perspective on world affairs).
Then on the other hand, Somalis are terrible drivers. The words 'excuse me' do not exist in their language-they just barge at will which makes them rude by American standards (although perfectly acceptable social behavior to them). They generally avoid conversations with Americans (even though they can speak English) and I often times wander why they moved here in the first place (aside from obvious reasons).
The Hispanics seem to want to carve out a little piece of Latin America where ever they go, which is awesome on one hand, but on the other a majority of the older ones could seem to give a rat's behind about what country they now find themselves in and will fight becoming Americanized tooth and nail. Only the younger ones have any desire to learn English and to integrate into American culture. It just gets kind of frustrating when a very large group of people continue to live as though they were still in their native country day in and day out, especially if they refuse to interact act with you or the American community.
I don't think this is just ethnic either. Sometimes this is also regional. I am all for keeping certain vestiges of your own culture no matter where you live, but I also say that one should make an effort(not be forced to, but be open to) to seek other people out. Living in Georgia, I have witnessed friction between in state and out of state interests(and this is anywhere).
As for quality of life being increased due to ethnic diversity, if you like the things of different cultures(or at least open to them), then your quality of life will be good. As for quality of life, the reason crime went up isn't because diffrent ethnic groups came to Minnesota. Bad things happened because of gangs and criminal elements moving into the state and being mixed in with the decent people who want to live safely and decently. Criminals are in every society. The difference is that Minnesota has a certain culture where the objective is not to stand out or draw attention to one's self. In the middle class, there is a big tendancy to dissasociate one's self with criminals, where there are issues where people may not want to live near criminals, but at the same time, you don't "snitch". Whenever there is a "no snitch" attitude, crime will get bad. While there is a fear of criminals, the fear of police(especially in places where the police abuse their authority with impunity) tends to prevail. That is what is happening. Ethnic diversity can help the quality of live in terms of cultural events, provided there is an effort(a true effort) to build bridges and have a human unity among one another. Yes, we have different traditions. We are also human. I don't see this as "feel good" politics. This is just how it is. If people make an effort to make society safer and get rid of the criminal element and start building bridges to reach out to each other, the quality of life will be better because there can be some sense of community among everyone. Until that happens, ethnic tensions will get from bad to worse and gangs will become worse. Minnesota has a chance to prove it can make things work. Its residents have a chance to make things work and learn from its neighbors to the east. It's a two way street. Everyone must be willing to committ.
The Hispanics seem to want to carve out a little piece of Latin America where ever they go, which is awesome on one hand, but on the other a majority of the older ones could seem to give a rat's behind about what country they now find themselves in and will fight becoming Americanized tooth and nail. Only the younger ones have any desire to learn English and to integrate into American culture. It just gets kind of frustrating when a very large group of people continue to live as though they were still in their native country day in and day out, especially if they refuse to interact act with you or the American community.
You know, there's two sides to this. My mother is an immigrant and has been here for over 25 years now and is in some ways Americanized, but in many ways she is not. Why? Well for starters she moved here when she was about 30 years old - don't you think people are pretty much set in their ways, or at least in their culture/language/belief systems, etc. by that age? Of course. Many times it's not that immigrants don't *want* to change, but it's very hard for them to. At the end of the day you have to be yourself, for better of for worse.
I don't think you or most Americans for that matter really understand how foreign this country can seem to someone from overseas. I've never lived overseas but I have done extended stays (3 months) overseas, and I can tell you that even in those 3 months, I had grown really homesick and found myself wanting to just be me and be around people like me, not around all of those "foreigners". It has nothing to do with disliking or being prejudiced towards anyone, it's just the simple fact that I was 10,000 miles from home and felt like a fish out of water. I understand exactly why it takes many years for immigrants to this country to assimilate and why many never really do and stick to their old ways. It's perfectly understandable. I think you do have to do a minimal amount of assimilation - for example, being to speak and read passable English and respect and abide by the rules and laws of this country and your state and local community just as everyone else does. I do think you should do that. But beyond that, who cares if an immigrant never speaks a word of English to anyone other than the people she HAS to speak English to, like government officials? I understand both sides of the argument and at the same time I feel like some people in this country are just so unsympathetic to the needs, concerns, and feelings of people who are different from them.
Because the entire point of America is the "melting pot" ideal and refusing to assimilate because your from someplace else isn't a valid excuse when you voluntarily chose to leave that place and make your life here?
Really, that's fine if you lived overseas for a few months and felt homesick. It's understandable, because after all, you were away from home. It's an entirely different thing if you MOVED to another country (for whatever reason), made that country your home but refused to fully assimilate because of how you were raised elsewhere, back where things were different.
Full assimilation into our culture and society has been, is presently and always should be a non-negotiable, prerequisite cost for immigration into this country. It's what has made us strong and successful. "Multi-culturalism" , while a leftist buzzword that's mistakenly used as a synonym for "diversity" achieves nothing other than fragmenting a nation from within and pulling it apart in the respective directions of the respective disintegrated parties.
Learning English but still speaking native languages, cooking native dishes, telling stories about the homeland- those are all wonderful things that Americans should embrace, as it gives us a chance to learn about other places, exposes us to new things and grants the chance to possibly modify our own lifestyles towards a better way.
Coming into America for "more opportunity" but insulating yourself from America save for everything but the paycheck accomplishes nothing other than to Balkanize us further. That is what were seeing with the new wave of immigrants from certain countries. They're not coming to America to become Americans; they're coming to America because their own homelands are a craphole and we offer more opportunities for a better working wage. This is what distinguishes them from immigrants of years past. In our endless quest for "tolerance" , we've forgotten that there is a cost associated with coming here- one that is absolutely essential for our social model to function properly- and we've stopped holding immigrants liable to it.
Because the entire point of America is the "melting pot" ideal and refusing to assimilate because your from someplace else isn't a valid excuse when you voluntarily chose to leave that place and make your life here?
Really, that's fine if you lived overseas for a few months and felt homesick. It's understandable, because after all, you were away from home. It's an entirely different thing if you MOVED to another country (for whatever reason), made that country your home but refused to fully assimilate because of how you were raised elsewhere, back where things were different.
Full assimilation into our culture and society has been, is presently and always should be a non-negotiable, prerequisite cost for immigration into this country. It's what has made us strong and successful. "Multi-culturalism" , while a leftist buzzword that's mistakenly used as a synonym for "diversity" achieves nothing other than fragmenting a nation from within and pulling it apart in the respective directions of the respective disintegrated parties.
Learning English but still speaking native languages, cooking native dishes, telling stories about the homeland- those are all wonderful things that Americans should embrace, as it gives us a chance to learn about other places, exposes us to new things and grants the chance to possibly modify our own lifestyles towards a better way.
Coming into America for "more opportunity" but insulating yourself from America save for everything but the paycheck accomplishes nothing other than to Balkanize us further. That is what were seeing with the new wave of immigrants from certain countries. They're not coming to America to become Americans; they're coming to America because their own homelands are a craphole and we offer more opportunities for a better working wage. This is what distinguishes them from immigrants of years past. In our endless quest for "tolerance" , we've forgotten that there is a cost associated with coming here- one that is absolutely essential for our social model to function properly- and we've stopped holding immigrants liable to it.
It isn't just happening in this point in time. It happened along time ago too. How do you think "Little Italy", "Corktown", "Poletown", "Chinatown" and some of Minnesota's towns like New Prague and New Ulm came to be ? There wasn't "full" assimilation in alot of cases. Yes, the immigrants who came learned English. At the same time, most kept their old customs around. This has been happening for ages. I think now in an era of political correctness, we are seeing these things from a different perspective.
As long as there are countries that are turning to crap due to government corruption, famine, or war and there are countries that are much more free, there will always be migrations. In cases of war or political factions, you will have people from different classes coming in. You will have doctors and educators as well as the working poor and criminals. If the migrations are occuring strictly for economic reasons, you will find mostly the poor and in some cases criminals will follow. Look at Mexico. The current migration(legal and illegal) and most poor and coming for the jobs that alot of people don't want. Even further, look at Europe. Few people are immigrating from Europe because they are happy where they are. Most nations in Europe have a high quality of life. The reason there was a high percentage of Europeans coming to America in the 1900's is because those nations in Europe either had war, extreme poverty, or both. Why did so many people move to Minnesota from Scandinavia and Germany? Times got hard in those places. Why were their relatively few Africans and Asians coming to the USA? Simple. Immigration policy limited those numbers. Did it reduce the crime rates for the USA? Not really. Look at the big time criminals. Al Capone was born to immigrant parents in the USA and he became a big time criminals. Think about prohibition. Many criminals were the children of immigrant parents. The same thing is happening today.
The reason the quality of life has gotten bad for some has to do with the fact the criminals make things bad for everyone. While only a small percentage of any group is committing crime, they committ the vast majority of crimes and that blows things for the people who don't live criminal lifestyles. Another issue is the "no snitch" policcy existing in alot of low income neighborhoods. This is why crime gets bad. Many residents know who did it, but are afraid to come forward. I find this particularly true in the black community. There is a mistrust of the police. The criminals are feared, but so are the police.
Last edited by green_mariner; 01-09-2008 at 08:07 PM..
It isn't just happening in this point in time. It happened along time ago too. How do you think "Little Italy", "Corktown", "Poletown", "Chinatown" and some of Minnesota's towns like New Prague and New Ulm came to be ? There wasn't "full" assimilation in alot of cases. Yes, the immigrants who came learned English. At the same time, most kept their old customs around. This has been happening for ages. I think now in an era of political correctness, we are seeing these things from a different perspective.
As long as there are countries that are turning to crap due to government corruption, famine, or war and there are countries that are much more free, there will always be migrations. In cases of war or political factions, you will have people from different classes coming in. You will have doctors and educators as well as the working poor and criminals. If the migrations are occuring strictly for economic reasons, you will find mostly the poor and in some cases criminals will follow. Look at Mexico. The current migration(legal and illegal) and most poor and coming for the jobs that alot of people don't want. Even further, look at Europe. Few people are immigrating from Europe because they are happy where they are. Most nations in Europe have a high quality of life. The reason there was a high percentage of Europeans coming to America in the 1900's is because those nations in Europe either had war, extreme poverty, or both. Why did so many people move to Minnesota from Scandinavia and Germany? Times got hard in those places. Why were their relatively few Africans and Asians coming to the USA? Simple. Immigration policy limited those numbers. Did it reduce the crime rates for the USA? Not really. Look at the big time criminals. Al Capone was born to immigrant parents in the USA and he became a big time criminals. Think about prohibition. Many criminals were the children of immigrant parents. The same thing is happening today.
The reason the quality of life has gotten bad for some has to do with the fact the criminals make things bad for everyone. While only a small percentage of any group is committing crime, they committ the vast majority of crimes and that blows things for the people who don't live criminal lifestyles. Another issue is the "no snitch" policcy existing in alot of low income neighborhoods. This is why crime gets bad. Many residents know who did it, but are afraid to come forward. I find this particularly true in the black community. There is a mistrust of the police. The criminals are feared, but so are the police.
Many fear the police but I believe that a better way to describe the relationship is lack of trust. No, we don't particularly like living around killers either (I grew up around them myself) but we see them as being the lesser of the two evils compared to the cops.
In any case...........LM1, I understand your point. Yes it is better for America to be a "melting pot", but as I said before, I don't think you understand how difficult it can be, even if you want to assimilate. Not saying it's impossible, but don't be surprised if people are here for 25 and 30 years and still aren't fully assimilated. You can't completely shed your identity and who you were before coming to the States and trade it in for a completely new one once you get here. It just doesn't work like that. And also, please remember that not everyone is going to be the same. I know in our politically correct world we like to say that every person from every culture is the same, but that's not really true. I mean, the basics are the same. We all eat, sleep, and sh*t, but the similarities end there. Face it, we're not all going to be the same. That's what I think many who believe in the "melting pot" don't understand - they think that every person of every color who comes here is going to eventually talk the same way, dress the same way, eat the same things, listen to the same music, and think the same thoughts and share the same beliefs. Not going to happen. And that's OK. As a matter of fact, it's a good thing, because for all of our differences as human beings, and for all of the problems that this causes, at least it keeps life interesting, you know?
Many fear the police but I believe that a better way to describe the relationship is lack of trust. No, we don't particularly like living around killers either (I grew up around them myself) but we see them as being the lesser of the two evils compared to the cops.
In any case...........LM1, I understand your point. Yes it is better for America to be a "melting pot", but as I said before, I don't think you understand how difficult it can be, even if you want to assimilate. Not saying it's impossible, but don't be surprised if people are here for 25 and 30 years and still aren't fully assimilated. You can't completely shed your identity and who you were before coming to the States and trade it in for a completely new one once you get here. It just doesn't work like that. And also, please remember that not everyone is going to be the same. I know in our politically correct world we like to say that every person from every culture is the same, but that's not really true. I mean, the basics are the same. We all eat, sleep, and sh*t, but the similarities end there. Face it, we're not all going to be the same. That's what I think many who believe in the "melting pot" don't understand - they think that every person of every color who comes here is going to eventually talk the same way, dress the same way, eat the same things, listen to the same music, and think the same thoughts and share the same beliefs. Not going to happen. And that's OK. As a matter of fact, it's a good thing, because for all of our differences as human beings, and for all of the problems that this causes, at least it keeps life interesting, you know?
_
I believe the solution is to realize is that a killer is a killer and a killer could kill you. Not every police officer will abuse their authority, but I do see why there is distrust in the police. The ones who abuse their powers make things bad for everyone. I think another issue is the "no snitch" policy. If ones "snitches" on someone who deserves to go to prison, there could be certain death there too, especially if the police don't do their jobs or that criminal puts the fear in everyone else to keep quiet. The issue to reduce crime and increase the quality of life is a community effort to turn in the criminals and stop being afraid to speak up(this is for everyone) and further encourage education. Societies with highlevels of educational achievement have lower incidents of violent crime. If you are educated or have marketable job skills, or the enterprising skills, you can get a job, or start a business. Then the quality of life will increase.
Another solution is to remember thay yes, we all have different cultures, but to realize we are all human too.
I don't know that 'diversity' in common parlance is necessarily a good thing. People want to live with/near others who are like them. That isn't racism; it's human nature.
Some friends and I had a discussion about this one night. I suggested that non-citizens (e.g., Somalis) should be held to a much higher standard when it comes to crime. There was a story in the news a couple months ago...a U of M student got mugged/robbed in Stadium Village by a Somali man. If he's not a US citizen, I think he should be instantly deported. I don't think this country needs more people (of any race), especially those who commit violent crime.
One friend completely disagreed and felt sorry for the Somali guy. Another friend was ambivalent.
One friend completely disagreed and felt sorry for the Somali guy.
There's an old saying- A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.
While I don't necessarily agree with the labels themselves, I do definitely agree that the bleeding-heart idealist types usually feel one way when dismissing things as a matter of philosophy whereas those opinions turn different when 'diversity' stops being an ideal and actually moves into their neighborhood, next to their children.
The bleeding-heart types would probably feel much differently if the gun or knife was held to their throat and they were put in a situation where they didn't know if they were going to live or die, for no reason other than the poor, oppressed, helpless immigrant wanted to take what belonged to them. But as long as it's some other guy in the newspaper, well, then it's easy to "feel sorry" for the Robber.
I don't know that 'diversity' in common parlance is necessarily a good thing. People want to live with/near others who are like them. That isn't racism; it's human nature.
Some friends and I had a discussion about this one night. I suggested that non-citizens (e.g., Somalis) should be held to a much higher standard when it comes to crime. There was a story in the news a couple months ago...a U of M student got mugged/robbed in Stadium Village by a Somali man. If he's not a US citizen, I think he should be instantly deported. I don't think this country needs more people (of any race), especially those who commit violent crime.
One friend completely disagreed and felt sorry for the Somali guy. Another friend was ambivalent.
I will agree that humans like to hang out with those who are like them, but that has nothing to do with race, like your comment suggested-but rather of simillar interests.
Why should that Somali man be instantly deported? He should be held accountable like any other person in this country. Go to Somali (I know, you would never go there, but just play along), Germany, Mexico, England, Australia-where ever-and commit a crime. None of those countries would deport you. Instead you would be charged and imprisoned within the country. Possibly executed if it was a capital offense.
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