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It has been quite interesting reading your debate.
Done rather well I would say.
I tend to get heated about the subject
Some of your points seem to be simple and some seem complex.
If I may, I would like to jump in.
This is grass (yes, punn intended) roots, one would say.
All 1st hand experience.
My strong belief for no legalization of pot comes from many experiences within family and within in care giving due to employment.
My son dabbled in the alchohol and pot at an early age, about 7th grade.
Alchohol was bad in itself.
The pot went into a different direction.
You see, mostly when pot is involved, one starts hanging out with people who do drugs, a variety.
Thus the exposure and peer pressure and curiousity of other drugs.
A young mind cannot even gather the realm of pot and other drugs.
Even an adult mind cannot.
My daughter, our household suffered tremendously because of this.
My son who has been an adult for some time and off drugs says, yes pot was a gateway into more.
My line of work brings me into contact sadly seeing individuals be destroyed by pot.
Families with teenagers who start to smoke dope, grades drop, family is under stress, family misses work trying to help child. Child becomes aggresive at home and at school.
This is why I asked the question some posts back, how does a parent have any backing if it were legal for adults. We all know a teenager is going to throw that at parents at authority.
I am taking care of an elderly couple whose nephew has gotten into drugs, meth, heroin, via dope being the first drug.
This family is collapsing financially from what has been stolen, and collapsing as a structure.
I have many more stories and experience with this.
Alchohol yes can do this too.
Pot can too. Pot can go into so many more avenues though, such as meth, crack, heroine, LSD, Estacy etc.
I will never get off the stance of legalizing such a a drug, and yes it is a drug, that destroys indviduals, families, our economy, and our structure as a society.
First of all, for many people, pot, even with its current illegal status, does not become a gateway drug. Second, pot wouldn't be legal for minors to do anyway, so legalizing it for adults probably wouldn't change anything in terms of minors using. As with cigarettes and alcohol, some would still use it illegally, most wouldn't. It's possible more would start using if it were legalized for adults, but we don't know that for sure, and we should certainly try to prevent that if we can. Third, if pot were legal, it would become more mainstream, and would lose its gateway drug status, as the people using it would be less likely to be people who are the type to defy authority and shun the law, and therefore would be less likely to use illegal harder drugs. Therefore people who want to try pot, but not necessarily the harder drugs, would be less likely to hang out with people who were into all different kinds of drugs, and less likely to be sucked into their habits.
Last edited by Cleverfield; 01-14-2015 at 11:12 AM..
It has been quite interesting reading your debate.
Done rather well I would say.
I tend to get heated about the subject
Some of your points seem to be simple and some seem complex.
If I may, I would like to jump in.
This is grass (yes, punn intended) roots, one would say.
All 1st hand experience.
My strong belief for no legalization of pot comes from many experiences within family and within in care giving due to employment.
My son dabbled in the alchohol and pot at an early age, about 7th grade.
Alchohol was bad in itself.
The pot went into a different direction.
You see, mostly when pot is involved, one starts hanging out with people who do drugs, a variety.
Thus the exposure and peer pressure and curiousity of other drugs.
A young mind cannot even gather the realm of pot and other drugs.
Even an adult mind cannot.
My daughter, our household suffered tremendously because of this.
My son who has been an adult for some time and off drugs says, yes pot was a gateway into more.
My line of work brings me into contact sadly seeing individuals be destroyed by pot.
Families with teenagers who start to smoke dope, grades drop, family is under stress, family misses work trying to help child. Child becomes aggresive at home and at school.
This is why I asked the question some posts back, how does a parent have any backing if it were legal for adults. We all know a teenager is going to throw that at parents at authority.
I am taking care of an elderly couple whose nephew has gotten into drugs, meth, heroin, via dope being the first drug.
This family is collapsing financially from what has been stolen, and collapsing as a structure.
I have many more stories and experience with this.
Alchohol yes can do this too.
Pot can too. Pot can go into so many more avenues though, such as meth, crack, heroine, LSD, Estacy etc.
I will never get off the stance of legalizing such a a drug, and yes it is a drug, that destroys indviduals, families, our economy, and our structure as a society.
You can't define everyone who uses cannabis based on your experience.
Why are you rolling your eyes at me?
No, I alone cannot. I never said such.
Collectively I have come to that decision.
I've walked the earth for a large amount of years.
Seen alot.
Met alot of people who have seen a lot.
Listened to alot of stories.
I think there can be a negative impact on some individuals from the use of marihuana, but the costs to society of criminalizing it exceed the costs of dealing with the negative effects.
With heroin, methamphetamines, and other hard drugs the costs of the negative impacts exceed the costs of criminalizarion.
So, while I think both are ill advised, I could support decriminalizing marihuana while keeping hard drugs illegal.
Okay....lets see if I can debate as good as you guys
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverfield
First of all, for many people, pot, even with its current illegal status, does not become a gateway drug. True,but for many it does.
Second, pot wouldn't be legal for minors to do anyway, so legalizing it for adults probably wouldn't change anything in terms of minors using. I am not so sure anyone knows that answer. It puts pot in an area of justification though. As with cigarettes and alcohol, some would still use it illegally, most wouldn't. We dont know that for sure It's possible more would start using if it were legalized for adults, but we don't know that for sure, and we should certainly try to prevent that if we can. Yes I agree, but that would entail spending tax money. Would that new cost be same, more or less than what is being spent now on illegal doing of pot?
Third, if pot were legal, it would become more mainstream, and would lose its gateway drug status, as the people using it would be less likely to be people who are the type to defy authority and shun the law, and therefore would be less likely to use illegal harder drugs. Therefore people who want to try pot, but not necessarily the harder drugs, would be less likely to hang out with people who were into all different kinds of drugs, and less likely to be sucked into their habits. Sure, the rowsers and the rebels may be less likely to hang out with the hardcore drugs. Although it is like people with same interests hang out together. Getting high on dope, meth, Heroin, its the company of the folks you hang with. I am not saying all dope smokers do.
I was watching 60 minutes a few days back and they had a bit on the legaliztion of pot in Colorado.
At one point they interviewed a Police Officer. The interviewer asked the cop if there were less drug cartells there now, because one can walk into a store and buy pot. He said no, they have not gone anywhere. What they are starting to see is that there is a price war for the pot due to competition.
That got me to thinking
okay, these drug cartells arent going to want to loose business, prices get lower price war less tax revenue coming in for the stores selling which was a big selling point a reason to legalize it. The huge tax revenue.
Also, are these drug cartells going to get sneakier at getting young kids hooked to keep their business?
I have some interesting information an, interview from someone who was able to get into the drug cartell and be a reporter of such.
I will find it and post the link.
It may take me a bit.
This guy really had some neat information, things I would have never thought of.
And some video footage.
Atalanta, I can understand why you would be against drugs. Your story shows that drugs have negatively impacted your life and those of your family. However, using your personal experiences to influence your decision making is called an anecdotal fallacy. Even collectively we cannot use these experiences to influence the freedom of others. To argue that drugs cause problems is like arguing that guns kill people. Choices are involved every time someone "lights up".
You might find it interesting that addiction is not so far from psychological diseases like schizophrenia or obsessive-compulsive disorder. You can "rewire" your brain by simply doing something over and over, like habit. These habits can be broken if you break down the chain of events from belief to intention to action.
If you believe that pot is an addictive and harmful substance then it will influence your intentions.
You intend to protect people from this substance because you believe it is addictive and harmful.
Your actions are that you rally to keep it illegal with the intention of protecting people and lecture them on the harms you believe it poses to them and society.
It all happens in the fraction of an instant, especially if you are adept at doing it. This is the reason that people continue habits. They do not stop to think and analyse their own actions.
It might be worth mentioning regarding the illegality of drugs that cartels and organized crime are in your same shoes, arguing against legalization although for the purpose that it keeps the money flowing to them. The majority of victims in the war on drugs are the users and small-scale dealers, not the violent drug cartels and powerful kingpins.
Atalanta, I can understand why you would be against drugs. Your story shows that drugs have negatively impacted your life and those of your family. However, using your personal experiences to influence your decision making is called an anecdotal fallacy. Even collectively we cannot use these experiences to influence the freedom of others. To argue that drugs cause problems is like arguing that guns kill people. Choices are involved every time someone "lights up".
You might find it interesting that addiction is not so far from psychological diseases like schizophrenia or obsessive-compulsive disorder. You can "rewire" your brain by simply doing something over and over, like habit. These habits can be broken if you break down the chain of events from belief to intention to action.
If you believe that pot is an addictive and harmful substance then it will influence your intentions.
You intend to protect people from this substance because you believe it is addictive and harmful.
Your actions are that you rally to keep it illegal with the intention of protecting people and lecture them on the harms you believe it poses to them and society.
It all happens in the fraction of an instant, especially if you are adept at doing it. This is the reason that people continue habits. They do not stop to think and analyse their own actions.
It might be worth mentioning regarding the illegality of drugs that cartels and organized crime are in your same shoes, arguing against legalization although for the purpose that it keeps the money flowing to them. The majority of victims in the war on drugs are the users and small-scale dealers, not the violent drug cartels and powerful kingpins.
Colorado Life,
I don't like to use the word "against" drugs, cause then it seems to get people riled up.
I believe it has no place in the realm of being legal.
As I posted some posts back it is NOT just my personal experience, you will see what I wrote further on that looking back at my post.
Guns are not addicting, so I am unsure of your comparison.
Also schizophrenia cannot be re-wired as you say. It is a physical ailment in the brain. It shows up on a CT Scan.
I assure you, my believe of pot and other drugs is not due to a habit of thinking. I have stopped, thought, and analized this thoroughly over many a years.
THIS STATEMENT FROM YOUR ABOVE POST, I am curious where you have gotten this information?
"It might be worth mentioning regarding the illegality of drugs that cartels and organized crime are in your same shoes, arguing against legalization although for the purpose that it keeps the money flowing to them. The majority of victims in the war on drugs are the users and small-scale dealers, not the violent drug cartels and powerful kingpins"
Atalanta, I can tell you from the viewpoint of a Psychiatrist that Schizophrenia can be reversed given the pattern of thought changes. CT scans are notoriously unreliable for diagnosing conditions, I encourage you to research this on your own.
Regarding the cartels and organized crime, this comes from LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition), an organization of Law Enforcement Officers, Judges, DEA Agents, FBI Agents and others involved in the war on drugs that feel that it has failed. I am one of those that believe that drugs should be legalized although the underlying problems causing people to use drugs should be resolved before having to resort to drugs. Unfortunately we can't fix our financial issues or legal issues or physical and mental ailments so easily so we resort to said drugs.
Guns are compared to drugs when it comes to killing people. My comparison was the choice, the choice to pull the trigger or light the pipe. The choice is always there.
I've done quite a bit of research on schizophrenia, and while it can be treated, the symptoms managed, and it doesn't necessarily have a dire prognosis in terms of quality of life, it is considered a neurological brain disease, rather than simply a problem of cognition, and has no known cure. There are physical brain changes in individuals with schizophrenia, specifically enlargement of the ventricles, and shrinkage of gray matter. Those are very telltale, and irreversible signs of the disease. Now, not all psychoses are schizophrenia. There are drug induced psychoses that can go away when the person stops using the drugs, and there are other forms of temporary psychosis, but schizophrenia, as it's defined in the DSM, has no real cure. People who hallucinate voices, or images, or who have delusions, such as the people on TV talking directly to them, or the government trying to kill them or monitor their thoughts, etc., never fully get better. They can learn to see their hallucinations as part of their disease, and attribute them to their imaginations, thus gaining some control of their disease, but the underlying symptoms will always be there, they just learn to manage them.
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) roots, one would say.
