Crime and punishment in Minnesota (2015, crime rate, felons)

[MidwestRedux]

OR

Something that MOST of us can agree on about Jamar Clark.

I don't wish to speculate on what happened between the officers and Mr. Clark. There's already a thread for that.

The fatal encounter never should have taken place. Why was Jamar Clark not in prison? He was a convicted arm robber who "was in and out of jail for a few years.". After release he threatened an ex girlfriend and led the police on a high speed chase in a stolen car. He was released without bond pending trial. Does anyone think this is reasonable?

By most identifiable metrics, Minnesota has one of the most lenient criminal justice systems in the country. Why?

If someone pulls out a weapon, threatens you and demands your money or possessions, you are well within your right to use deadly force against them. If they get caught, they might do a few years. That doesn't make sense.

Yes it costs money, but why else don't we lock up violent offenders for a long, long time? Do we care more about the rights of the guilty than the innocent?

[Unsettomati]

Minnesota's incarceration rate is the 2nd-lowest in the nation.
Report: Minnesota imprisonment rate is 2nd lowest in U.S. - StarTribune.com

and...

Minnesota's crime rate is at a 50-year low.
https://www.minnpost.com/data/2015/0...e-bigger-jesus

And Minnesota's violent crime rate places it at #42 out of 50 states - pretty good on the surface of it, and even more so when you consider that crime tends to be concentrated in urban areas and the Twin Cities are the 14th largest urban area in the United States.
America’s Most Violent (and Most Peaceful) States - 24/7 Wall St.

If you want to play the game that any crime or criminal you can cite means we're not imprisoning enough people, then logically we should imprison everyone - because crime will never be eradicated, so there will always be examples to hold up. But Minnesota is basically having its cake and eating it, too. It has a low violent crime rate and it doesn't spend excessive money on incarceration. In that, it's the exact opposite of the South, which spends oodles of money imprisoning its populace and even more on capital punishment (which costs even more per prisoner than lifelong incarceration) while also having the highest violent crime rate of any region of the country. Ours is a system that's doing criminal justice a lot better than most states.

Anyway, prisons are overflowing, and there aren't enough judges and prosecutors to handle the caseloads as it is - because to a lot of people, spending one dollar more of taxpayer money than can possibly be avoided is a crime right up there with killing someone. Is it any wonder that the overburdened system makes maximum use of pleas deals and probation?

So what's the issue? Jamar Clark? Because you can always find a poster child to hold up to claim the system is failing. Or do results matter? Because Minnesota is pretty much maximizing the bang-for-your-buck right now in this regard. Because, tell you what - you can build a dozen new prisons and you can triple the Minnesota incarceration rate and hire lots of new prosecutors and create many new judicial posts and there will still be Jamar Clarks - it's the nature of any human-run system. So just looking at this case or that cases misses the point, which is the whole picture of results.

And I don't think 'What would Louisiana do?' should be a model for Minnesota.

[Ghengis]

Originally Posted by Unsettomati

Minnesota's incarceration rate is the 2nd-lowest in the nation.
Report: Minnesota imprisonment rate is 2nd lowest in U.S. - StarTribune.com

and...

Minnesota's crime rate is at a 50-year low.
https://www.minnpost.com/data/2015/0...e-bigger-jesus

And Minnesota's violent crime rate places it at #42 out of 50 states - pretty good on the surface of it, and even more so when you consider that crime tends to be concentrated in urban areas and the Twin Cities are the 14th largest urban area in the United States.
America’s Most Violent (and Most Peaceful) States - 24/7 Wall St.

If you want to play the game that any crime or criminal you can cite means we're not imprisoning enough people, then logically we should imprison everyone - because crime will never be eradicated, so there will always be examples to hold up. But Minnesota is basically having its cake and eating it, too. It has a low violent crime rate and it doesn't spend excessive money on incarceration. In that, it's the exact opposite of the South, which spends oodles of money imprisoning its populace and even more on capital punishment (which costs even more per prisoner than lifelong incarceration) while also having the highest violent crime rate of any region of the country. Ours is a system that's doing criminal justice a lot better than most states.

Anyway, prisons are overflowing, and there aren't enough judges and prosecutors to handle the caseloads as it is - because to a lot of people, spending one dollar more of taxpayer money than can possibly be avoided is a crime right up there with killing someone. Is it any wonder that the overburdened system makes maximum use of pleas deals and probation?

So what's the issue? Jamar Clark? Because you can always find a poster child to hold up to claim the system is failing. Or do results matter? Because Minnesota is pretty much maximizing the bang-for-your-buck right now in this regard. Because, tell you what - you can build a dozen new prisons and you can triple the Minnesota incarceration rate and hire lots of new prosecutors and create many new judicial posts and there will still be Jamar Clarks - it's the nature of any human-run system. So just looking at this case or that cases misses the point, which is the whole picture of results.

And I don't think 'What would Louisiana do?' should be a model for Minnesota.

awww, you broke his shiny new thread

[Steve Bowen]

Originally Posted by MidwestRedux

OR

Something that MOST of us can agree on about Jamar Clark.

I don't wish to speculate on what happened between the officers and Mr. Clark. There's already a thread for that.

The fatal encounter never should have taken place. Why was Jamar Clark not in prison? He was a convicted arm robber who "was in and out of jail for a few years.". After release he threatened an ex girlfriend and led the police on a high speed chase in a stolen car. He was released without bond pending trial. Does anyone think this is reasonable?

It would be highly unusual for a suspect in a crime like this to be denied bond completely while awaiting trial. That is typically reserved for people who are major flight risks or have committed a truly heinous crime like 1st degree murder. And that's not just in Minnesota, that's true in most of the US. So yes, I think it's reasonable.

[mnlife]

Minnesota has one of the lowest incarceration rates in the country, but due to economic disparities, Minnesota also has one of the worst black-white incarceration ratios in the country. (Recent article in The Atlantic: The Black Family in the Age of Mass Incarceration).

[Minntoaz]

I know people in Minnesota who have had MANY DUI's, like upwards of 8 and they still legally can pay their way through and drive. In fact in one instance the officer sent the intoxicated individual on their merry way. Let's talk about Arizona judicial system- individual (whom I know well) gets in car and puts keys in ignition, realizes he is too intoxicated but doesn't take keys out and gets DUI, with the whole nine yards including a lot of money spent. That is just one little example of legal differences found. We don't just need to talk about incarceration here. Why are people getting hit by the light rail every other day? They should be getting tickets for that instead of allowing the same mistake to repeatedly happen! If someone steals a car- they should be serving time and/or be on probation. By allowing people to walk away we are enabling.

A crime is a crime is a crime. I don't understand how we can possibly bring race into this. The end result is still the end result and that is what we are talking about here. Let's talk about black and white educational levels. Let's talk about crime and education levels. Let's talk about SES and education. I mean we could go on about why or how or reasons but life is not like that. We are all capable of making responsible choices and ESPECIALLY in Minnesota. You have to make multiple bad choices here to be faced with no option but to sell drugs.

[chessgeek]

Incremental improvements are always welcome, but with the 2nd lowest incarceration rate and 42nd ranked crime rate (only 8 states are safer) as mentioned earlier in the thread it would be foolish IMO to overhaul an approach that has been very successful in keeping the state safe. We can always nitpick, but many states are clearly envious of Minnesota where crime and safety are concerned.

[chessgeek]

Minnesota has a violent crime rate of 2.34 per 1,000 people according to the Neighborhood Scout website. Arizona has a higher violent crime rate of 4.16 per 1,000 people. What would Arizona do? (as is also the case with Louisiana)...is certainly not a model for reducing crime in Minnesota.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by chessgeek

Minnesota has a violent crime rate of 2.34 per 1,000 people according to the Neighborhood Scout website. Arizona has a higher violent crime rate of 4.16 per 1,000 people. What would Arizona do? (as is also the case with Louisiana)...is certainly not a model for reducing crime in Minnesota.

It brings this question. Louisiana and Mississippi will incarcerate a large amount of people. However, it has not don't alot for the high crime problem. What is the solution?

[Unsettomati]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

It brings this question. Louisiana and Mississippi will incarcerate a large amount of people. However, it has not don't alot for the high crime problem. What is the solution?

There are a lot of reasons.

For one, a major aspect of crime is prevention before the fact, and this goes into basic concepts of governance and society. Minnesota is not a poor state - Louisiana and Mississippi are. Crime rates tend to correlate with poverty rates. Minnesota has one of the best educational systems in the United States - Louisiana and Mississippi rank among the worst. Educated populaces have more opportunities and fewer tendencies to turn to crime. Minnesota also has the most extensive social safety net in the country. Take a guess at where Louisiana and Mississippi rank. Now, a lot of people wring their hands over the expense of such things as education and social services, but they aren't seeing for forest for the trees. They focus entirely on the balance sheet in the near-term, ignoring the long-term costs.

Beyond that, I think it goes to basic notions of criminal justice. Most prisoners are going to re-enter society one day. Some states want to prepare those prisoners for that. They make treatment for substance abuse readily available. They support educational opportunities in prison to enhance the employment prospects for those prisoners once they're released. They 'ban the box' so as not to make it harder for ex-cons to be gainfully employed. They don't pursue permanent disenfranchisement for felons. These states focus on rehabilitation and work to lower recidivism rates.

Other states take the tack that imprisonment must be entirely punitive. Improvement programs are not supported. This notion tends to be ideologically driven by people who are less interested in results and more interested in retribution. And that sort of attitude gets just want one would expect - poor results. More recidivism. More crime. And what this comes down to in the end is whether we as a society want to see fewer of our people robbed, assaulted, raped, and mugged - or if we'll accept that as long as we get to feel good about being 'tough on crime'? Personally, I prefer living in a world where it's less likely that my children, my wife, myself, the people next door, will be victims of crime.

There's always room for improvement, even here in Minnesota. But let's not lose sight of the fact that on balance we're doing criminal justice a lot better than most states.