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I can certainly see the difference between 1 and 20 shots. Obviously 4 is not 20, but I see your point. Still, if it had been just 1 shot, I don't believe most people would view it any differently.
My personal opinion, my instinct, not based on any facts, is that Yanez pulled over Castile because he was looking for the robbery suspects and Castile fit the description to a 'T'. My instinct is that the gun was visible in the car and Castile reached for his paperwork, or that Castile said only "I've got a gun" and then reached for his paperwork, which caused Yanez to panic and shoot. I doubt Castile was "murdered" or killed because he was Black. I think it was a combination of him fitting the description, poor communication on his part and a nervous, jumpy cop. Basically, the same as most of these high profile shootings. By now we've all seen the training videos where the cops have to make split-second decisions. That's how fast a criminal can grab the gun and shoot at him. When humans are fgocred to make those kinds of decisions real-time, accidents happen. In law enforcement, accidents can be fatal. I just think it was a tragic accident. I think Yanez will never be convicted. I think at trial he'll say Castile never communicated that he had a permit & failed to follow his commands to stay still. It'll come down to his word vs. Reynolds' word and he'll be cleared of criminal charges. Then the family will sue the city for wrongful death and justly win a seven figure settlement.
I basically agree. He was pulled over to see if he was the robber but not fitting to a "T". If he did, they would have proceeded differently (guns drawn right away and back-up called).
I think it is plausible that either the police accidentally made a wrong statement (we all have been in arguments with our better half on what we thought we said) versus what he actually said. OR the victim heard him wrong. And because he was wondering if he was a possible robber suspect as well as being told he had a concealed gun, the police was more trigger happy out of fear. The police video won't have audio of him talking. So as you say, it's going to be "he said she said" and the police walks and it will change his life for the worse forever.
Police having to deal with a verified weapon in the car (concealed carry or not) was a key reason why someone was shot. Me not carrying a gun in my car increases my chances of NOT getting shot and killed (or me accidentally killing someone myself). To date, carrying a gun as a male would not have helped in any way whatsoever. For me at least, it only can end up not-so-good. And if you have a gun and you are pulled over. Smart people who are carrying should be extremely clear with the officer who pulled them over. To me at least, this is a key lesson that I have come away with from this tragic story.
I can understand one bullet fired in a panic accidentally though not acceptable of course, but not four. Hard to say if the first bullet killed Castile or not. The fact he fired three more bullets indicates intentionality to me (just plain common sense). My opinion is based on the facts that we know at this point. Realize people may disagree.
I will accept the final decision after the investigation and judicial due process takes place. The next hurdle for Yanez after that will be the civil suit which has a lower standard of proof/evidence for the plaintiff. Given that a four year old was in the car, I doubt he escapes unscathed during that trial.
They will take a lot of time in jury selection in the criminal case IMO. They will eliminate those that believe he is probably guilty based on the video and those on the other side that think just because he is an officer, he must be innocent.
Btw, I have read posts on other forums that indicate Yanez' shooting of Castile was a "mistake". Now if Castile had feared for his life and somehow grabbed his gun quickly and shot Yanez in self defense, the narrative would not be that Castile made a "mistake", it would be that he is a dangerous "cop killer". Double standard. I agree officers should be respected for putting their lives on the line, but they get far more due process than the average citizen when these incidents happen. Usually merely being put on administrative leave when a citizen would be arrested for the same scenario. That is a fact.
This incident does not change my view on police officers in general. Believe they are worthy of our respect. However, I also believe it is way too difficult to terminate the very small percentage of violent, corrupt, and unstable officers from our police departments. They should be setting the example. Instead they are often allowed to get away with a lower standard than the average citizen. Inexcusable in 2016. Too often the bad cops are not held accountable at all. We need police chiefs with the courage of Dallas police chief Brown.
- I disagree with your assertion that four shots shows "intentionality". That's certainly one way to see it though. Just playing devil's advocate here, but I think you could just as easily argue it shows how convinced he was that Castile was a serious threat. I'm not certain as to police protocol in shootings, but I do know cops are taught not to wing anyone, but rather shoot "dead center mass" with the intention of killing. On that note, I imagine cops are also taught to keep firing until the threat is neutralized? I really have no strong opinion on this point, but I don't see it as indicative of anything either.
- Wouldn't the civil suit be against the city or police department? What does Yanez have to take? It's hard to imagine the police union allows them to be sued civilly for 'accidents'?
- My opinion is as stated. There's nothing to suggest racism or murder. It's an accident and it will take an awful lot to convince a prosecutor to charge him. Lavish Reynolds just doesn't come off as a credible witness. She's already contradicted herself several times, been caught lying and basically is acting like the won the lottery between her TV appearances, GoFundMe page (which she keeps raising the goal on), etc.
- You're right, it's not equal if Castile would have shot Yanez. We as a society entrust our police officers with our trust in these situations, because we understand the types of life and death decisions they have to make. They are supposed to be highly vetted, highly trained and highly supervised. The average guy on the street is not. Apples to oranges, imo.
- It is very difficult for cops to be fired. That's because they're union members. That's the gist of why many conservatives want public unions done away with.
- I'm going to catch hell for this, but I also believe departments are so eager to hire minority officers that they sometimes lower their standards to achieve diversity, at the detriment of society. Was Yanez really the best man for the job, or did he simply check a box? Watching the video, he certainly doesn't come off as the cream of the crop. Officer Michael Griffin in Mpls (who's Black) has beaten 22 excessive force complaints (he works North Mpls' largely Black 4th precinct, so do the math on who he's mostly assaulting) and a couple Federal indictments (plus is involved in yet another federal indictment at present). I know a Black Mpls cop and while I can't prove it, he told me that Griffin failed the psych exam during the hiring process, but the city was under such heat to hire Black officers that they moved forward with Griffin anyhow due to lack of qualified applicants. To date the city has paid out over $400k in settlements because of him. I think we would all agree that a police force reflecting the makeup of the city is a good thing, but if that comes via lowering standards it has the reverse effect.
I basically agree. He was pulled over to see if he was the robber but not fitting to a "T". If he did, they would have proceeded differently (guns drawn right away and back-up called).
I think it is plausible that either the police accidentally made a wrong statement (we all have been in arguments with our better half on what we thought we said) versus what he actually said. OR the victim heard him wrong. And because he was wondering if he was a possible robber suspect as well as being told he had a concealed gun, the police was more trigger happy out of fear. The police video won't have audio of him talking. So as you say, it's going to be "he said she said" and the police walks and it will change his life for the worse forever.
Police having to deal with a verified weapon in the car (concealed carry or not) was a key reason why someone was shot. Me not carrying a gun in my car increases my chances of NOT getting shot and killed (or me accidentally killing someone myself). To date, carrying a gun as a male would not have helped in any way whatsoever. For me at least, it only can end up not-so-good. And if you have a gun and you are pulled over. Smart people who are carrying should be extremely clear with the officer who pulled them over. To me at least, this is a key lesson that I have come away with from this tragic story.
- Black male about 30 y/o, shoulder length dreadlocks up in a bun, facial hair on his chin, similar nose. Hard to argue that doesn't closely resemble Castile, but I get the point that the cop couldn't determine all of that from a passing glance, and likely saw just enough to raise his suspicions to take a closer look.
- Agreed that guilty or not guilty, Yanez' career is over and his life is pretty much screwed.
- No doubt, if you carry a weapon legally and are stopped by the police, there's a very deliberate protocol you should follow for your own safety.
- I appreciate your reasonable points and want to ask you the question, that no one else will address: If 18-35 y/o Black men are being profiled in shootings (because the data shows Black juveniles, women and older people are not), then what should be done to balance the percentages? The activist industry wants these percentages to be equal, I think? What's the solution? Profile more Whites to make things more fair? That's not going to help anything. So what's the other option? Stop profiling Black males, 18-35 y/o? Do people understand what this will do to the crime rates in the neighborhoods that most effect law abiding Black folks? Look at Baltimore or North Mpls, where activists demanded an end to profiling and violent crime has skyrocketed. Now people are screaming "racism" at the cops for not doing their jobs in poor, Black communities. Tough spot for the cops right? I read an article in the Strib a month ago or so, about a hard working Black Mother who was trying to raise her kids in North Mpls and her 2 y/o daughter was shot in the leg by a stray bullet. She said (paraphrasing) "There's a field at the end of our block. Every night there's 10-12 men down there gambling, selling drugs and too often it ends in gun shots.". If we ask the cops to be a reactive police force, then all they can really do is sit, wait for those shots to ring, then respond and by then it's often tool late. Traditionally, the cops would drive up into that field, hit those guys with a spot light, jump out and roust them for being in the park after dark. Check ID's, pat them down, etc. Maybe they find a gun, or narcotics, or a wanted killer? That prevents violence before it happens. Now though, they let them be, so they aren't accused of racially profiling & 2 y/o's get caught in the crossfire. Is that really progress?
Sorry, but your claims in rationalizing the killing of citizens by the state, as well as trying to portray us 'poor supposedly-oppressed whites' as the 'real victims', are demonstrably false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason3000
You honestly believe this proves something? As if there has never been a case where a Black person wasn't shot? How about the unarmed White kid in Fresno last week who was shot dead by the cops? They must not have gotten the memo huh?
Do you honestly believe that the white guy pointing the shotgun at a deputy doesn't owe his life right now in part to the fact that he's white? Or are you just being intentionally obtuse?
Do you somehow think "Hey, sometimes white guys get killed but cops, too, so it all evens out and it's cool!"?
Don't you have a bone to pick with your compatriot above, who is running around claiming that it never makes the news when the police kill white people for no good reason?
What exactly is your point? There is no racism, but man we gotta stop all this killing of white people?
Sorry, but your claims in rationalizing the killing of citizens by the state, as well as trying to portray us 'poor supposedly-oppressed whites' as the 'real victims', are demonstrably false.
Do you honestly believe that the white guy pointing the shotgun at a deputy doesn't owe his life right now in part to the fact that he's white? Or are you just being intentionally obtuse?
Do you somehow think "Hey, sometimes white guys get killed but cops, too, so it all evens out and it's cool!"?
Don't you have a bone to pick with your compatriot above, who is running around claiming that it never makes the news when the police kill white people for no good reason?
What exactly is your point? There is no racism, but man we gotta stop all this killing of white people?
Hello?
- I follow the news closely and have never heard of the second two shootings you listed. The only reason the first one is getting any airtime is because it happened the same week as the Baton Rouge and St Paul shootings, so people were demanding to know why it got no real run. Do you honestly believe the shootings of White people get the same media attention as do Blacks, or are you just being intentionally obtuse?
- No, not sometimes "White guys get killed by cops TOO", act "White guys get killed by cops TWICE AS OFTEN" and yet there is little to no outrage, because it doesn't fit the divisive narrative. There is no good guy and bad guy dynamic and that doesn't sell ads in 2016.
- My point is the BLM protests are built on a lie. The goal isn't equality, the goal is the demonization of our local police forces, the demonization of unions and the demonization of Whites in general by powers much bigger than BLM. BLM themselves are just useful idiots.
- I disagree with your assertion that four shots shows "intentionality". That's certainly one way to see it though. Just playing devil's advocate here, but I think you could just as easily argue it shows how convinced he was that Castile was a serious threat. I'm not certain as to police protocol in shootings, but I do know cops are taught not to wing anyone, but rather shoot "dead center mass" with the intention of killing. On that note, I imagine cops are also taught to keep firing until the threat is neutralized? I really have no strong opinion on this point, but I don't see it as indicative of anything either.
- Wouldn't the civil suit be against the city or police department? What does Yanez have to take? It's hard to imagine the police union allows them to be sued civilly for 'accidents'?
- My opinion is as stated. There's nothing to suggest racism or murder. It's an accident and it will take an awful lot to convince a prosecutor to charge him. Lavish Reynolds just doesn't come off as a credible witness. She's already contradicted herself several times, been caught lying and basically is acting like the won the lottery between her TV appearances, GoFundMe page (which she keeps raising the goal on), etc.
- You're right, it's not equal if Castile would have shot Yanez. We as a society entrust our police officers with our trust in these situations, because we understand the types of life and death decisions they have to make. They are supposed to be highly vetted, highly trained and highly supervised. The average guy on the street is not. Apples to oranges, imo.
- It is very difficult for cops to be fired. That's because they're union members. That's the gist of why many conservatives want public unions done away with.
- I'm going to catch hell for this, but I also believe departments are so eager to hire minority officers that they sometimes lower their standards to achieve diversity, at the detriment of society. Was Yanez really the best man for the job, or did he simply check a box? Watching the video, he certainly doesn't come off as the cream of the crop. Officer Michael Griffin in Mpls (who's Black) has beaten 22 excessive force complaints (he works North Mpls' largely Black 4th precinct, so do the math on who he's mostly assaulting) and a couple Federal indictments (plus is involved in yet another federal indictment at present). I know a Black Mpls cop and while I can't prove it, he told me that Griffin failed the psych exam during the hiring process, but the city was under such heat to hire Black officers that they moved forward with Griffin anyhow due to lack of qualified applicants. To date the city has paid out over $400k in settlements because of him. I think we would all agree that a police force reflecting the makeup of the city is a good thing, but if that comes via lowering standards it has the reverse effect.
Well, it was not real hard for Hormel to terminate striking workers back in the 1980's. Ever see the documentary "American Dream"? You also previously mentioned PATCO when Reagan was President. Chief Brown in Dallas has fired some officers during his tenure. It is about will and a leader with courage that wants to do the right thing. Brown has it and Harteau does not.
However, you are right about the complications that arise when someone is kept on the force ONLY for diversity sake and not held accountable. Griffin is an embarrassment to the department then and way too costly to justify.
I do not know who Glenda Hatchett will sue on behalf of the Castile family. Yanez' behavior on the tape easily demonstrates that he was not vetted well enough. Plus there was a four year old in the car which makes it even more reckless. The "person on the street" in this instance was Ms. Reynolds, who acted far more rationally ironically. This will make her job much easier.
At least we finally found something to agree on, regarding officer Griffin and the reluctance of the city to fire him if nothing else.
Ultimately, everyone posting their opinion here should ask themselves if they were the passenger in this case and their SO or a close family member or friend were shot and killed by a police officer in a similar manner, would you post the same thing?
Would those calling for justice who commended Mark Dayton for his comments still agree with him if that happened to someone they knew? My guess would be "yes", but I can't speak for you.
Would those urging us to wait until more information is provided and that also criticized Mark Dayton for what he said stand by that position if someone they knew or were close to was killed that way? I somehow doubt it, but I can't speak for you.
Feel free to post either that your response would be the same or if it would be different, please explain why. Just trying to gauge the authenticity of people's views. Would they remain consistent if someone they knew was killed vs. a stranger?
It will be interesting to see what happens when the investigation concludes. Ramsey County district attorney John Choi will make the decision about how to deal with the evidence and has not stated if it would be not to charge, or whether a grand jury would be used if he did charge.
Ultimately, everyone posting their opinion here should ask themselves if they were the passenger in this case and their SO or a close family member or friend were shot and killed by a police officer in a similar manner, would you post the same thing?
Apples oranges. I will never be in a car with people who do drugs in front of their 4 year old, drive without license, have Crip sayings on their Facebook page, been pulled over 52 times, etc etc. I'd like to think my friends are model citizens. They look and act the part. Therefore if they WERE shot people would assume they were wrongly shot. That's the difference. With that said, my gut tells me the Cop was out of line.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 07-16-2016 at 07:03 PM..
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- I appreciate your reasonable points and want to ask you the question, that no one else will address: If 18-35 y/o Black men are being profiled in shootings (because the data shows Black juveniles, women and older people are not), then what should be done to balance the percentages?
This is a controversial topic and therefore there are truths with both sides of the conversation. The reality is police DO profile. I'm 100% positive of this. We all do it (some more than others). Police kind of have to. At the same token, judging someone based off of their skin color or age alone is WRONG! Black and 25 years old doesn't mean anything to me. BUT, too many black family cultures are broken. Pants down to their arse, poor communication skills (not taking advantage of education), smoking, etc means their family culture was broken. I don't have a problem with police profiling less-than-ideal folks. As I said early on, there are a lot of white trash people roaming the streets too (I'm white). Police also profile them and like to pull them over.
But I understand why the black community is upset. For instance my brother (white 55) who works 2nd shift has gotten pulled over 5 times in the last couple years. Why? because he is driving at 2AM and police are profiling (wondering if he is drunk). That p_isses me off. Hence if you are pulled over for being black alone that upsets me too. In AZ (our winter home) this happened Jessie Thornton: Man Cuffed On D.U.I. After Blowing 0.000 On Sobriety Test | News One He has been pulled over many times while driving a nice car. Surprise AZ is 99% white. He got cuffed and blew a 0.00% BAC.
Ultimately, everyone posting their opinion here should ask themselves if they were the passenger in this case and their SO or a close family member or friend were shot and killed by a police officer in a similar manner, would you post the same thing?
Would those calling for justice who commended Mark Dayton for his comments still agree with him if that happened to someone they knew? My guess would be "yes", but I can't speak for you.
Would those urging us to wait until more information is provided and that also criticized Mark Dayton for what he said stand by that position if someone they knew or were close to was killed that way? I somehow doubt it, but I can't speak for you.
Feel free to post either that your response would be the same or if it would be different, please explain why. Just trying to gauge the authenticity of people's views. Would they remain consistent if someone they knew was killed vs. a stranger?
It will be interesting to see what happens when the investigation concludes. Ramsey County district attorney John Choi will make the decision about how to deal with the evidence and has not stated if it would be not to charge, or whether a grand jury would be used if he did charge.
- I'll never be in a car with the windows rolled up, hot boxing a blunt, forcing a 4 y/o to inhale the smoke. I don't know what happened with Yanez walked up to the window, but it sounds like from the audio that Castile did not following instructions. I like to think I only ride with people capable of following the instructions of a cop if pulled over.
- No. A leader is supposed to tell the truth, not spread a popular lie. All he did was stir up racial tensions. If our cops start getting killed like in other cities, Dayton will have blood on his hands for propagating this lie.
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As if there has never been a case where a Black person wasn't shot? How about the unarmed White kid in Fresno last week who was shot dead by the cops? They must not have gotten the memo huh?
