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Old 04-17-2017, 01:27 PM
 
178 posts, read 345,595 times
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Thank you for posting this. We're looking for something similar with a goal of checking out congregations/meetings that 1. take an active role in working in the community and 2. are committed to racial inclusiveness amongst leadership. Still looking but will consider these.
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:26 PM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,085,150 times
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May I ask a question? I'm being 100% sincere and have no intention of malice, anger or rudeness!

Naturally, you're free to choose whatever church you want to attend! (Or not attend at all.) But, what I don't understand is why people have a checklist for the way they want a church to be. Modern music, accepting of the gay lifestyle, plenty of people in their mid-20's, etc., (Just using your requirements as an example!)

My questions are: Why do you attend church? What's the purpose/goal for you in it? Is it to fulfill what YOU want, or are you looking for a church that worships and honors God and teaches what His Word says?

They're fair questions. If you're looking to meet your own needs and have a checklist for what you expect from other people there, is that worshiping God or is that a social club? Is it really about God or is it about you? Is God the focus, or are you?

Again, I'm not trying to be rude. It's a fair question to ask people why they look for what they do in a church... or even why they attend one at all.
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
369 posts, read 630,901 times
Reputation: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Living View Post
May I ask a question? I'm being 100% sincere and have no intention of malice, anger or rudeness!

Naturally, you're free to choose whatever church you want to attend! (Or not attend at all.) But, what I don't understand is why people have a checklist for the way they want a church to be. Modern music, accepting of the gay lifestyle, plenty of people in their mid-20's, etc., (Just using your requirements as an example!)

My questions are: Why do you attend church? What's the purpose/goal for you in it? Is it to fulfill what YOU want, or are you looking for a church that worships and honors God and teaches what His Word says?

They're fair questions. If you're looking to meet your own needs and have a checklist for what you expect from other people there, is that worshiping God or is that a social club? Is it really about God or is it about you? Is God the focus, or are you?

Again, I'm not trying to be rude. It's a fair question to ask people why they look for what they do in a church... or even why they attend one at all.
Why does it have to be either / or? Why can't it be both?

I'm a liberal, progressive thirtysomething who also believes in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and it can be challenging to find a church that has progressively social beliefs about who Jesus loves and accepts. Most people who attend church are looking for others who interpret and embrace a particular expression of the faith. I connect with more upbeat music, compared to hymnals, and so that feels more like worship through music. But my 85-year-old grandma might not feel the same way. As I mentioned, I'm thirtysomething, expecting my first child. I'd like a congregation that caters to moms and kids so that I can create fellowship with other believers who are in the same life stage as me. If the most women's outreach they do is a weekly knitting circle is Wednesday at 9am, well, that's not going to work for me. I'm also fairly liberal and progressive, so an evangelical church that forbade women from teaching or taught that homosexuals are going to hell, well, I have a problem with that. We have so many different types of churches precisely because there is still so much up for interpretation.

Yes, church is about worshipping God and it is also about creating community with fellow believers.

If you are happy going to absolutely any church anywhere, then good for you. You're pretty lucky. But for most people, we do not find all pastors, all worship, and all congregations to be the same so no, churches are not interchangeable.

In fact, I would argue that church is precisely about the other people. You do not need to go to church to worship God or learn about God. You can pray and study the Bible from the comfort of your own home. A church gives us the opportunity to meet with others. And if those others are interpreting the Bible in a way that is opposed to how we interpret the Bible, then that can be really uncomfortable.

So it's both. Church gives us space to worship God, to learn about God and grow closer to Him, but it also gives us the opportunity to meet with other believers who are pursuing the faith in a way that feels authentic.
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Old 04-18-2017, 10:36 PM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,085,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justabitoff View Post
Why does it have to be either / or? Why can't it be both?

I'm a liberal, progressive thirtysomething who also believes in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and it can be challenging to find a church that has progressively social beliefs about who Jesus loves and accepts. Most people who attend church are looking for others who interpret and embrace a particular expression of the faith. I connect with more upbeat music, compared to hymnals, and so that feels more like worship through music. But my 85-year-old grandma might not feel the same way. As I mentioned, I'm thirtysomething, expecting my first child. I'd like a congregation that caters to moms and kids so that I can create fellowship with other believers who are in the same life stage as me. If the most women's outreach they do is a weekly knitting circle is Wednesday at 9am, well, that's not going to work for me. I'm also fairly liberal and progressive, so an evangelical church that forbade women from teaching or taught that homosexuals are going to hell, well, I have a problem with that. We have so many different types of churches precisely because there is still so much up for interpretation.

Yes, church is about worshipping God and it is also about creating community with fellow believers.

If you are happy going to absolutely any church anywhere, then good for you. You're pretty lucky. But for most people, we do not find all pastors, all worship, and all congregations to be the same so no, churches are not interchangeable.

In fact, I would argue that church is precisely about the other people. You do not need to go to church to worship God or learn about God. You can pray and study the Bible from the comfort of your own home. A church gives us the opportunity to meet with others. And if those others are interpreting the Bible in a way that is opposed to how we interpret the Bible, then that can be really uncomfortable.

So it's both. Church gives us space to worship God, to learn about God and grow closer to Him, but it also gives us the opportunity to meet with other believers who are pursuing the faith in a way that feels authentic.
Hello! Thanks for responding. Yes, I see what you're saying. Fellowship is definitely part of the church experience. I guess a more specific question is this. What happens when what you look for in a church doesn't line up with what God says in His Word? Do your needs and desires then take precedent over what God says in scripture?

For example, the church you described is not what church is in the scriptures. It's predominantly the gathering together of the followers of Jesus to worship and learn about Jesus. Loving each other, caring for each other needs wasn't the main purpose but the result of being Christians. They also very strictly adhered to what the scriptures said and anything else that was taught was proclaimed as false teachings. A false teaching is anything that goes against what the scriptures teach. So, God and His Word were the priorities. And what authority do we have about God if not His Word? So, the teachings of the scriptures are, by necessity, central and primary.

As far as people interpreting the Bible differently, that's true. But the Bible isn't subject to ANYONE'S private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20) God said what He meant and meant what He said. PEOPLE twist scriptures to MAKE them mean what THEY want them to mean. You said: "but it also gives us the opportunity to meet with other believers who are pursuing the faith in a way that feels authentic." I'm confused what you mean by that. That appears to mean that church and the Bible are subject to every person's feelings instead of the other way around. If we go to church to learn about, and worship God, our Creator, then surely, as the scriptures say, we are to conform to His Word and His ways... not to conform God and His Word to our feelings. Otherwise He wouldn't be God. We would be creating a god that WE wanted and could accept. That raises us to God's level and lowers God to being a created being. And that's idolatry.

That's what I've never understood. If people want to gather with others of like minds to be social and help each other and the community, that's great! But to have a personal list of requirements for a church that aren't listed in God's own Word for what a church is (or what His Word clearly teaches) would seem to have more to do with the individual being the focus with God as an accessory.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
369 posts, read 630,901 times
Reputation: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Living View Post
Hello! Thanks for responding. Yes, I see what you're saying. Fellowship is definitely part of the church experience. I guess a more specific question is this. What happens when what you look for in a church doesn't line up with what God says in His Word? Do your needs and desires then take precedent over what God says in scripture?

For example, the church you described is not what church is in the scriptures. It's predominantly the gathering together of the followers of Jesus to worship and learn about Jesus. Loving each other, caring for each other needs wasn't the main purpose but the result of being Christians. They also very strictly adhered to what the scriptures said and anything else that was taught was proclaimed as false teachings. A false teaching is anything that goes against what the scriptures teach. So, God and His Word were the priorities. And what authority do we have about God if not His Word? So, the teachings of the scriptures are, by necessity, central and primary.

As far as people interpreting the Bible differently, that's true. But the Bible isn't subject to ANYONE'S private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20) God said what He meant and meant what He said. PEOPLE twist scriptures to MAKE them mean what THEY want them to mean. You said: "but it also gives us the opportunity to meet with other believers who are pursuing the faith in a way that feels authentic." I'm confused what you mean by that. That appears to mean that church and the Bible are subject to every person's feelings instead of the other way around. If we go to church to learn about, and worship God, our Creator, then surely, as the scriptures say, we are to conform to His Word and His ways... not to conform God and His Word to our feelings. Otherwise He wouldn't be God. We would be creating a god that WE wanted and could accept. That raises us to God's level and lowers God to being a created being. And that's idolatry.

That's what I've never understood. If people want to gather with others of like minds to be social and help each other and the community, that's great! But to have a personal list of requirements for a church that aren't listed in God's own Word for what a church is (or what His Word clearly teaches) would seem to have more to do with the individual being the focus with God as an accessory.

As you said, the churches described in the Bible are not the churches of today. If that were true, there would be no megachurches. Does that mean megachurches not Biblical?

I'm still not really sure why you are finding conflict in certain specifics that a person is looking for in a church. Obviously, the biggest criteria is "Does this church follow Biblical teachings?" Once that has been ascertained, then it's up to individual preferences. But even Biblical teachings can be debated, such as the Christian eschatology around pre-millennial rapture, post-millennial rapture and amillenial rapture. These are Christian teachings that can vary from church to church. Other examples also include having homosexuals involved in ministry (such as Methodist and Episcopal). Then there is the Catholic church, which teaches not to use birth control. So you see, it's not as easy as simply saying, "Well, as long as the church is focused on God and the Word." Yes, that's true, but there's more to a church than just that. If there was only one way to interpret and worship God, we would not have as many denominations as we have. The very fact we have denominations proves that humans have the ability to worship the same God in a variety of different ways. Unless you believe that Methodists aren't Christian because they allow lesbian pastors, which the Catholic church does not. The Catholic church does not even allow female pastors. If they have such diametrically opposed beliefs in this one area, which one is truly Christian and following the Word?

There are also much more basic, aesthetic differences in church that one needs to determine: Does this church use modern-styled music or historic hymns? (I prefer listening and singing modern music -- does that make me more or less of a Christian than someone who sings hymns? No. They are both options, and I can choose which one feels like a more authentic expression of worship) Does this church take place in an actual church or an event center (some people actually prefer sitting in pews of an 19th century church versus a modernized building with wifi). Does this church offer community lunches after the church service? Does this church offer small groups in my area or for people in my similar life stage? That's what I mean by "authentic."

None of those are in the Bible. They are all modern constructs of how a church can look. Just because it's not in the Bible doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it a new interpretation of how a church can look and function. Monasteries aren't in the Bible. Does that make them not Biblical?

You can worship God while also meeting your own preferences. Again, i don't understand why you see this as being an either / or. If you feel completely comfortable worshiping God in every single environment, that's great. I don't think most people are like that.

Do you attend a church? How did you decide to attend that church?
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