Study: Mpls. Can't Even Graduate Half Its Students (Minneapolis, St. Paul: section 8, homes)

[Cruz Azul Guy]

The case for almost any school is that if you go there with the intention to learn, you will learn. If you aren't motivated to succeed, chances are you won't. I'll send my kids to Minneapolis high schools, they'll take honors and AP classes and be surrounded by other honors/AP students and they'll all succeed. This would be the case in any school. I think the difference between suburbs schools and inner-city schools (the 15% difference in graduation rate) is that the bottom tier students in the suburbs are still being pushed to grind it out and finish with that diploma even though they really will never have a shot to move on to the next level. The inner city schools realize this at a younger age and many of them drop out and join the workforce at a younger age, sometimes due to necessity, some go on to lead troubled lives, etc.

No matter how you look at it, higher education isn't for everybody. There are plenty of blue collar jobs out there where a high school/college education isn't required and many of these positions make a heck of a lot more money than mine does. There is no shame in this. There are too many people out there who think life is over for somebody if they don't graduate from high school, that isn't at all the case. I have a cousin who is one of the more intelligent people I've met who never graduated from high school...it just wasn't for him. He is now the head chef at an upper scale restaurant and makes more money than I do....so be it.

I'm not trying to justify the lower graduation rates at the inner city schools. The point I'm trying to convey is that the overall quality of a school should not be based soley on graduation rates. Look at the programs the school offers, the quality of the faculty, the quality of the facility, etc, classroom sizes, etc.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Slig

The case for almost any school is that if you go there with the intention to learn, you will learn. If you aren't motivated to succeed, chances are you won't. I'll send my kids to Minneapolis high schools, they'll take honors and AP classes and be surrounded by other honors/AP students and they'll all succeed. This would be the case in any school. I think the difference between suburbs schools and inner-city schools (the 15% difference in graduation rate) is that the bottom tier students in the suburbs are still being pushed to grind it out and finish with that diploma even though they really will never have a shot to move on to the next level. The inner city schools realize this at a younger age and many of them drop out and join the workforce at a younger age, sometimes due to necessity, some go on to lead troubled lives, etc.

No matter how you look at it, higher education isn't for everybody. There are plenty of blue collar jobs out there where a high school/college education isn't required and many of these positions make a heck of a lot more money than mine does. There is no shame in this. There are too many people out there who think life is over for somebody if they don't graduate from high school, that isn't at all the case. I have a cousin who is one of the more intelligent people I've met who never graduated from high school...it just wasn't for him. He is now the head chef at an upper scale restaurant and makes more money than I do....so be it.

I'm not trying to justify the lower graduation rates at the inner city schools. The point I'm trying to convey is that the overall quality of a school should not be based soley on graduation rates. Look at the programs the school offers, the quality of the faculty, the quality of the facility, etc, classroom sizes, etc.

This is where you are wrong. 90+% of suburban graduates go onto some kind of advanced education, 94% in our district with 90% of those going on to a 4 year college.

I will say it again, it isn't the teachers that are the problems in the Minneapolis schools, it is the families that attend school there!

[Doc. T.]

Originally Posted by Ben Around

This is easily explained. Over the past decade or two, Minneapolis has had an influx of desparately poor, dysfunctional families from Chicago and other Midwestern cities, as well as immigrants from third world countries. Of course many large US cities have lots of poor people in them, but comparatively speaking, they are a much more stable population than Mpls.'s newcomers. The ranking speaks more to where the kids are at, rather than where the schools are at. It would behoove the entire Metro area if we could get a handle on this by working with the kids and their parents to impress on them the value of education. Easier said than done, but just writing this off will come back to bite our area.

Ben Around, appreciated your comments on the "value of education." Perhaps, it is genuinely more pervaisive than people realize? While attempting to establish business operations in Tennessee, I came to find out that the state has the highest percentage of people in the US, who are 25 and over who do not have a HS diploma (2007). Don't know socio-economic stats, but it did "bite me." Curtailed endeavors.

As a sidebar, I believe it may be valuable to stress some of the courtesy or "personal manners skills" (can't think of what else to call them) even at the HS level. I know this is soft curriculum and often frowned upon. However, in the international area, I've found it to be most salient in a person's effectiveness.

Thanks, for your post. Shalom.

[kuan]

Originally Posted by lalife

One has to wonder what these kids think they are going to do for jobs? Do they expect to have a decent life on service jobs or working in a factory / warehouse etc? A single person needs to make at least $20 an hour in the Twin Cities to have a good quality life with independence. $20 an hour jobs go to people who have graduated HS and have at least attended a vocational school.

Many kids still believe that, and it's through no fault of their own. My wife is quite highly educated and visits these factories. Once in awhile, some guy will come up to her and start talking about his daughter and the whole college thing. (they see my wife as a kind of role model) They actually believe that going to college is near impossible, and even though their daughters might be getting really good grades, there is no talk of college. They all plan on getting a job after high school.

[lalife]

Originally Posted by kuan

Many kids still believe that, and it's through no fault of their own. My wife is quite highly educated and visits these factories. Once in awhile, some guy will come up to her and start talking about his daughter and the whole college thing. (they see my wife as a kind of role model) They actually believe that going to college is near impossible, and even though their daughters might be getting really good grades, there is no talk of college. They all plan on getting a job after high school.

Next time she needs to tell them:

1) You live in Minnesota and there are programs here to help you get an education if your income is low.

2) One doesn't need to attend a 4 year college to get an education for a decent paying job. An Associate degree from a Technical College will help land a $40,000 +year job. Also, once a person is in a good company, many of these companies offer tuition reimbursement. I know numerous people who got their bachelor degrees this way. Also, the company I work for has a plethora of Master degreed people, thanks to tuition reimbursement.

If anything, at least start with a 2 year school. It is affordable if a person has the WILL TO LEARN.

[kuan]

Originally Posted by lalife

Next time she needs to tell them:

She does. She mentors a women in science program.

[nick is rulz]

Originally Posted by golfgal

I guess I can't speak for the inner-city schools but one thing I really like about our schools is no one seems to care if you are black, white, orange or pink, if you have similar interests you get along. One of the girls in DS's marching band lost her dad on the Bridge collapse this summer. The ENTIRE band rallied around her, gave her a ton of support, her friends went to church with her the first Sunday after her dad was found dead, she is black, her best friends are white and Asian. No one looks at her as a 'black' kid, they just see a bright, articulate young lady who is going places in this world.

you just viewed her as the black kid by pointing that unnecessary peice of trivia out. Furthermore, theres probably four other black kids in that entire school.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by nick is rulz

you just viewed her as the black kid by pointing that unnecessary peice of trivia out. Furthermore, theres probably four other black kids in that entire school.

I pointed that out for illustration purposes--the point being no one cares that she is black. She is FAR from the only black student in the school--there are many, many minority students in our district--many more then people realize.

[Doc. T.]

Educational dynamics are perplexing. Certainly, there are a bevy of factors that impact outcomes. Yet, at some level, maybe late HS or early college, I would like to see attention given to cognitive abilities. It would be nice if it could be wedded to the importance of personal-social skills. I think it would make a person both more successful and satisfied in whatever vocation they pursue. Perhaps this is being done or is a dead issue - don't know.

While teaching at the university level in China during the mid '80ties, I was often impressed with the ability my students had to speak four foreign languages by the time they graduated. Plus, their "ingratiating personality" made them a joy with which to interact. They held a common vision that was entirely beyond themselves. To "make China a dominate player in the global economy." I know all of the arguments about selection etc.. Nonetheless, they learned, they assimilated information, they got the job done often in conditions that would have been condemned in the US. Many of those students are now leaders of organizations that have changed the way we all live.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by kuan

Many kids still believe that, and it's through no fault of their own. My wife is quite highly educated and visits these factories. Once in awhile, some guy will come up to her and start talking about his daughter and the whole college thing. (they see my wife as a kind of role model) They actually believe that going to college is near impossible, and even though their daughters might be getting really good grades, there is no talk of college. They all plan on getting a job after high school.

It's good that your wife visits then. College is SO affordable for lower income people. It is too bad the schools can't get them to understand this. I paid for my own schooling when I went to college (so did my husband). We both graduated from private schools, yes we had some student loan debt but that was paid off within 5 years of graduating. Now, before you tell me it was less expensive then that just isn't so. The percentage of our starting income out of college to the amount of student loans we had is nearly identical to what it would be today.

Many kids graduate with about $40,000 in student loan debt (I think I read that was average these days--not sure), well they can expect to find a job in that same starting salary range or higher. When I graduated I had $16,000 in student loan debt and a starting salary of $16,000 which was pretty good back in the dark ages when I got out of school.