Why did the twin cities never get a subway system? (Minneapolis: crime, transfer)

[UrbanLuis]

The metro area is more than big enough to support one. Why did they never get one? Will it ever get one?

[Rhody2Mn]

The Twin Cities had the streetcar system which was quite comprehensive in its day (it not only covered Minneapolis and St Paul but traveled into distant exurbs). The streetcar era ended with the advent of the automobile and never evolved into a subway system.

I don't think we will ever see a proper subway due to many factors including the fact that it would be prohibitively expensive to build, the area itself is too spread out for it to really be beneficial for a majority of people, and the cities themselves aren't really large enough to justify a subway (which tends to be concentrated only in large urban areas like New York).

For better or worse the closest thing we have to subway is light rail. It is too bad the light rail routes weren't planned as subway paths underground to allow rapid travel as the current at-grade system is way too slow to actually be helpful since trains are constantly stopping and starting due to traffic lights and vehicles. The trip between the two downtowns can take upwards of 40-50 minutes on the current light rail system which is ridiculous. Had a proper subway been implemented, the travel time could have been cut to about 15 minutes.

[TimtheGuy]

Originally Posted by UrbanLuis

The metro area is more than big enough to support one. Why did they never get one? Will it ever get one?

NO, it will never get one. No where near cost feasible. #getreal

[UrbanLuis]

Thanks for the replies.

[Astron1000]

Per Rhody2Mn's post:

It's a complex story. But it's fascinating. While not related to a subway system, this story involves public transportation in the Twin Cities.

The Twin Cities' streetcar system in the 1950's-1960's - considered among the best in the US - was purchased by National City Lines which was owned by General Motors. (Yes, you could ride streetcars from Wayzata on Lake Minnetonka nearly 40 miles to Stillwater).

CBS news had a good story about what happened next.

"There is no question that a GM-controlled entity called National City Lines (NCL) did buy a number of municipal trolley car systems. And it's beyond doubt that, before too many years went by, those street car operations were closed down. It's also true that GM was convicted in a post-war trial of conspiring to monopolize the market for transportation equipment and supplies sold to local bus companies. What's not true is that the explanation for these events is a nefarious plot to trade private corporate profits for viable public transportation."

[UrbanLuis]

Thanks for sharing.

[davephan]

Most people don't work in the downtown areas, they work in the suburbs and live in the suburbs, and may live outside the Twin Cities area. A subway system is extremely expensive, and would never make economic sense to build in the Twin Cities. Generally speaking, public transportation in the Twin Cities has been viewed as a lower class transportation system for many decades. There's some people that use the public transportation system due to the high cost of parking in some areas, like the downtown areas, or the University of Minnesota. But if you consider it might take 2 to 3 times as long to travel with public transportation systems, compared to driving your own vehicle, it's not worth the hassle of taking public transportation.

Often times, you'd have to transfer between routes. There's waiting time for the first bus, then more waiting time for the second bus, there could be more waiting time for the third bus if there are that many transfers. If the bus is early or late, or just doesn't show up, then you wait even longer for the next bus. You wait when it's cold, in the snow, in the rain, and sometimes when it's hot. You ride the public transportation system with criminals who are also riding in the bus or train, and have an increased risk for being a crime victim. You're at a increased risk for being a crime victim while you are waiting for the bus or train. You ride the public transportation other people, some that are sick people, who could make you sick. Decades ago, the higher price peak fares were introduced. That discouraged a lot of commuters from using public transportation. When the bus is full, then you have to stand and hold on to a rail as you ride, which is unsafe and very annoying. You never have to put up with that in your own vehicle.

As a result of all that, public transportation is simply a second class way to get around. The vast majority of the population prefer driving their own vehicles. Only a tiny minority of the population depends on the public transportation system for a variety of reasons, like their inability to pay the costs associated with driving their own vehicles, or they are unable to drive their own vehicle for some reason.

[2nd trick op]

All the established subway systems (Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Chicago) developed before the invention of the automobile -- as did the downtown areas around which they were built. Washington, Los Angeles and San Francisco are late-comers, in no small part because the traffic has reached a saturation point at which additional highway construction is no longer feasible.

[Kaszilla]

Originally Posted by davephan

Most people don't work in the downtown areas, they work in the suburbs and live in the suburbs, and may live outside the Twin Cities area. A subway system is extremely expensive, and would never make economic sense to build in the Twin Cities. Generally speaking, public transportation in the Twin Cities has been viewed as a lower class transportation system for many decades. There's some people that use the public transportation system due to the high cost of parking in some areas, like the downtown areas, or the University of Minnesota. But if you consider it might take 2 to 3 times as long to travel with public transportation systems, compared to driving your own vehicle, it's not worth the hassle of taking public transportation.

Often times, you'd have to transfer between routes. There's waiting time for the first bus, then more waiting time for the second bus, there could be more waiting time for the third bus if there are that many transfers. If the bus is early or late, or just doesn't show up, then you wait even longer for the next bus. You wait when it's cold, in the snow, in the rain, and sometimes when it's hot. You ride the public transportation system with criminals who are also riding in the bus or train, and have an increased risk for being a crime victim. You're at a increased risk for being a crime victim while you are waiting for the bus or train. You ride the public transportation other people, some that are sick people, who could make you sick. Decades ago, the higher price peak fares were introduced. That discouraged a lot of commuters from using public transportation. When the bus is full, then you have to stand and hold on to a rail as you ride, which is unsafe and very annoying. You never have to put up with that in your own vehicle.

As a result of all that, public transportation is simply a second class way to get around. The vast majority of the population prefer driving their own vehicles. Only a tiny minority of the population depends on the public transportation system for a variety of reasons, like their inability to pay the costs associated with driving their own vehicles, or they are unable to drive their own vehicle for some reason.

Only in America is public transportation seen as a second class way of getting around. An ignorant view of you ask me.

[WestieWhitie]

Because given the current level of grift and corruption it would cost about a billion per linear foot?