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According to the map you are 4 minutes closer to 494 than I am...wow, huge difference....
I'm pretty sure the "red line" comes to Minneapolis from the SUBURBS....however, we aren't talking about going to Minneapolis-that is not the issue, it's the suburb to suburb commute that 2+ million people make each day vs the 110,000 people that work in Minneapolis...
My point wasn't to show off how much closer I am. I live north of downtown, yet I'm closer and between me and 494 there are a lot more people than between you and 494. Despite that, I still don't have great transit to the beltway. So why would someone 10 miles away from it in a less-populated area expect quick service?
And for that matter, despite being 4 minutes closer, I still wouldn't drive to LRT station if it ran on 494 to finish the rest of my trip. I'd just drive the last few miles.
The Red Line is an entirely suburban route. It runs from Apple Valley to MOA. The Orange Line is an upcoming, primarily suburban line that will run from Lakeville to Minneapolis. Both of those are going to hit big points in the suburbs. Have you checked out if the Red Line helps your husband or son at all? Presumably they'd be able to drive to it, get on the Red Line, and then either be close to their location or transfer to a local service that is available.
My point wasn't to show off how much closer I am. I live north of downtown, yet I'm closer and between me and 494 there are a lot more people than between you and 494. Despite that, I still don't have great transit to the beltway. So why would someone 10 miles away from it in a less-populated area expect quick service?
And for that matter, despite being 4 minutes closer, I still wouldn't drive to LRT station if it ran on 494 to finish the rest of my trip. I'd just drive the last few miles.
The Red Line is an entirely suburban route. It runs from Apple Valley to MOA. The Orange Line is an upcoming, primarily suburban line that will run from Lakeville to Minneapolis. Both of those are going to hit big points in the suburbs. Have you checked out if the Red Line helps your husband or son at all? Presumably they'd be able to drive to it, get on the Red Line, and then either be close to their location or transfer to a local service that is available.
He works in Burnsville. There used to be a route from AV to Burnsville, not any more. If he takes the Red Line it's a drive to Apple Valley--about 5 minutes, then on the bus, ride to Minneapolis, transfer buses, back to Burnsville--for an hour and a half minimum---or he can spend 15 minutes in the car and just drive to work. This post stared about not adding lanes, doesn't affect us at all. It would be nice for our son if the bus that drives right past his office would stop there, but it doesn't. He has to trek from Rosemount, to Minneapolis to get to Eagan....that's the point. There are no options for mass transit that makes sense. An option I suggested is instead of adding lanes, add light rail where people drive--494-694-35-94. It not only frees up traffic but it helps companies hire/relocate, etc. I think a lot of people would drive to the MOA area from AV/Rosemount/Eagan to hop the light rail to take them to Best Buy, Eden Prarie, etc. because of the traffic along that route. I'm sure the people coming south on 94 from Rogers, etc. would love to bypass traffic to get to work as well.
No one is stopping Maple Grove Transit from running an express bus to Eden Prairie.
That's not to say that an express bus wouldn't be successful.
From 2010 there were something like 3500 people who lived in Maple Grove and worked in downtown Minneapolis. There were over 1000 people who lived in Maple Grove and worked in the census tract centered at Highway 55 and 494 in Plymouth.
To get from the Maple Grove Transit Station to the Plymouth location takes over an hour and forces you to go through downtown Minneapolis.
To get to downtown Minneapolis from the Maple Grove Transit Station there are 21 direct trips of less than a half hour.
I could see sending more buses to downtown Minneapolis, but 21 to 0 for a 3.5-to-1 worker ratio seems really skewed. Particularly when the closer destination is the one getting no bus service.
Maple Grove to Eden Prairie picks up a census tract with 600+ workers. So, there you're looking at a 6-to-1 ratio vs downtown Minneapolis.
They do consider it, all the time, when they come here and post that they work in the suburbs and you suggest living in Minneapolis, you just add to the problem....
Well, I tend to suggest neighborhoods based on what people say they want, not where I think they should live. The other thing about our current public transportation system is that, depending on where in the suburbs you work, the nature of the majority of public transportation routes means that it's much easier to commute from city to suburbs or from suburbs to city than it is from suburb to suburb. When my husband interviewed for a position at United Health we discovered that he there was a reverse commute bus that dropped off right there. (it would also have been an option for those living in suburbs along the way, such as SLP). But I don't think I've ever been one to suggest to people that they live in, say, Stillwater and commute to Golden Valley, or in Eden Prairie and commute to Woodbury -- and those are the kinds of long-distance commutes that people take on at their own risk and not expect it to be easy.
As far as your son, if he was dead-set on public transportation he could move somewhere that offers it as a realistic option, or he could look for another job. I doubt there are many options that could sway many people in his situation to swap out a 15 minute drive for public transportation. As of 2010, only 556 Rosemount residents worked in Burnsville, and presumably those jobs are fairly scattered); it would be tough to create a realistic convenient commuting option that could compete with driving for that route.
And not to nitpick, but one already CAN take an express bus from Mall of America to Best Buy HQ (don't know about Eden Prairie); I've never taken it, but the schedule says it takes 15 minutes. It continues on to other stops such as American Blvd and France, Norman Center Drive and 83rd Street, and terminates at Normandale Lake Blvd and Green Valley. This seems to be exactly the kind of route you want, and luckily for would-be riders along that route, it already exists.
It's the 542, in case anyone is looking for a new way to commute! http://metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/1.../20/542Map.pdf
I couldn't find current ridership numbers, but as of a 2009 it appears that it averaged 197 daily passengers. It is incredibly highly subsidized, and has very low ridership.
From the report:
"Route 542’s subsidy per passenger is 48 percent higher than the Metro Transit suburban local average
subsidy of $9.26. It serves considerably fewer passengers per hour than the average suburban local
route and collects a lower fare per passenger." http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sit...onditions4.pdf
Now maybe those passenger numbers have gone up (I hope they have) and I'm certainly not arguing that the route be cut, but unfortunately despite the many offices served by that route along that corridor it hasn't been attracting many riders (an understatement, really). Would numbers go up if it were a train? Probably, but enough so to make it worthwhile? There's probably some things that could be done right now that could boost ridership on the bus itself (companies offering subsidized bus passes, maybe a better PR program!), but unfortunately that bus line does not seem to be much of a success. ALthough I'm sure it's very nice for those who DO ride it -- lots of room to spread out and you can always find a good seat!
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 03-12-2013 at 04:17 PM..
I have to ask the same question. Do people buy or rent in these places and then discover how hard it is to get from where they live to necessary destinations? Isn't that backwards? Fact is I've worked at a few suburban destinations while retaining my Minneapolis residence, and I've found that direction to be pretty good. I think it is groupthink to decide first you want a surburban address, and you want to commute cheaply or quickly to wherever you need to. I'll bet that happens to a lot of people who arrive in the area with little knowledge of where they are coming. Me, I've been here throughout most of the real growth, so I've always known what was involved. Then, too, someone who moves here from elsewhere has contributed nothing to the system in place. It will take some time for them to really have a stake. They probably need to just adapt like all the rest of us have had to over the decades. To arrive and then after a few months get on the horn and say "cater to me" is unrealistic. Who really asks anyone to come here? Most come on their own volition. And with that volition comes the same imperatives that apply to everyone.
The only concession I'll say is this: The state needs a comprehensive growth plan. "No new taxes" is not a plan at all. It is just a way to get an elective government job. Sadly, people who should know better respond to that pandering. And THAT is one of the reasons we don't have a better metropolitan transport system. You can thank people whose only real contribution is to restrain taxes on the rich and privileged.
That's not to say that an express bus wouldn't be successful.
From 2010 there were something like 3500 people who lived in Maple Grove and worked in downtown Minneapolis. There were over 1000 people who lived in Maple Grove and worked in the census tract centered at Highway 55 and 494 in Plymouth.
To get from the Maple Grove Transit Station to the Plymouth location takes over an hour and forces you to go through downtown Minneapolis.
To get to downtown Minneapolis from the Maple Grove Transit Station there are 21 direct trips of less than a half hour.
I could see sending more buses to downtown Minneapolis, but 21 to 0 for a 3.5-to-1 worker ratio seems really skewed. Particularly when the closer destination is the one getting no bus service.
Maple Grove to Eden Prairie picks up a census tract with 600+ workers. So, there you're looking at a 6-to-1 ratio vs downtown Minneapolis.
Since Maple Grove is served by Maple Grove Transit and Plymouth is served by Plymouth Metrolink, who exactly would run the buses from Maple Grove to Plymouth and who would run the buses for the return trip? If the residents being served are from Maple Grove, then I would expect that it would be Maple Grove Transit, right? Do they have the buses to provide this service? How many of the 1,000 people would take the bus? Where at 494/55 exactly would the stop be? This is a huge area with two major highways to cross. How does one get between the stop and work? Finally, have you contacted Maple Grove with your suggestion?
I have to ask the same question. Do people buy or rent in these places and then discover how hard it is to get from where they live to necessary destinations? Isn't that backwards? Fact is I've worked at a few suburban destinations while retaining my Minneapolis residence, and I've found that direction to be pretty good. I think it is groupthink to decide first you want a surburban address, and you want to commute cheaply or quickly to wherever you need to. I'll bet that happens to a lot of people who arrive in the area with little knowledge of where they are coming. Me, I've been here throughout most of the real growth, so I've always known what was involved. Then, too, someone who moves here from elsewhere has contributed nothing to the system in place. It will take some time for them to really have a stake. They probably need to just adapt like all the rest of us have had to over the decades. To arrive and then after a few months get on the horn and say "cater to me" is unrealistic. Who really asks anyone to come here? Most come on their own volition. And with that volition comes the same imperatives that apply to everyone.
The only concession I'll say is this: The state needs a comprehensive growth plan. "No new taxes" is not a plan at all. It is just a way to get an elective government job. Sadly, people who should know better respond to that pandering. And THAT is one of the reasons we don't have a better metropolitan transport system. You can thank people whose only real contribution is to restrain taxes on the rich and privileged.
I would say that most people choose where they live based on where they want to or can afford to live, regardless of where they work.
As for the Northstar, it was bound to fail from the beginning. Because MNDot doesn't own the tracks, they are completely at the mercy of the freight lines as to when and how often they can run commuter trains. This so completely limits the number of people who can or would be willing to take it that it makes it impractical for many.
That's not to say that an express bus wouldn't be successful.
From 2010 there were something like 3500 people who lived in Maple Grove and worked in downtown Minneapolis. There were over 1000 people who lived in Maple Grove and worked in the census tract centered at Highway 55 and 494 in Plymouth.
To get from the Maple Grove Transit Station to the Plymouth location takes over an hour and forces you to go through downtown Minneapolis.
To get to downtown Minneapolis from the Maple Grove Transit Station there are 21 direct trips of less than a half hour.
I could see sending more buses to downtown Minneapolis, but 21 to 0 for a 3.5-to-1 worker ratio seems really skewed. Particularly when the closer destination is the one getting no bus service.
Maple Grove to Eden Prairie picks up a census tract with 600+ workers. So, there you're looking at a 6-to-1 ratio vs downtown Minneapolis.
But again, what incentive would those people working in Plymouth have to ride an express bus if there was one? The distance you are talking about is about 8 miles, and I bet even at peak rush hour that doesn't take over 20, maybe 25 minutes at the worst. Do you really think all that many people will drive from their house to the MG station (~5 min), ride down to a Plymouth station (10-12 min), and then either walk or take a local circulator to their office (10 min)?
And again, parking is the under-appreciated variable. I bet a lot of people on those express buses and trains into DT would brave the traffic to drive if they could park for free right by their office door.
I am happy that my thread has sparked such discussion. I used to take the 690's from Eden Prairie to downtown Minneapolis and then the 790 to New Hope where I lived, and the whole commute would take about 1.5 hours total. Its not bad for a bus commute over such a distance but I was in high school and really did not mind taking my time to get home. What the biggest hurdle for the buses however was the ungodly back ups that seem to occur on 169 north around the Highway 7 and Cedar Lake rd exits and the 169 north exit on to Highway 55 in Golden Valley. I think a big step in relieving these choke points would bee expansion and renovation of highways 100 and 169 either road wise or by adding buslines down these major corridors. I think anyone out there that commutes down one of those two highways regularly would agree with me.
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