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Old 03-13-2013, 02:44 PM
 
Location: MN
3,971 posts, read 9,640,285 times
Reputation: 2148

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Quote:
Originally Posted by knke0204 View Post
Well, the I-94 corridor was the fastest and think of these numbers for communities that are part of that corridor, census #'s from 1990, and 2010.

Albertville: 1,251.......7,044
Rogers: 698........8,597
St. Michael: 1,519.......16,399
Monticello: 4,941.......12,759
Otsego: did not exsist.....13,761
Elk River: 11,143........22,974
Big Lake: 3,113..........10,060
Since no one seems to want to acknowledge the fact that the peripheral parts of the metro saw substantial growth 1990-2010, I'll focus in on the Northwest Exurbs and the I-94 Corridor. These communities combined had a population of 23,165 combined in 1990, assuming Otsego's unincorporated population of 500, and Frankurt Township's population of 500 before being annexed into St. Michael.

That population total grew to 91,596 in 2010. That's an increase of 68,431 people in 20 years, or 3,421 persons a year. That's nearly a 300% increase in population in that time. In that time there were no additional lanes added to Interstate 94, eastbound or westbound from County Road 30 to Monticello. It can be assumed that the majority of those living in that corridor commute to the downtowns of either St. Paul or Minneapolis or surrounding suburbs of high employment - Eden Prairie, Brooklyn Park, Plymouth, etc.... All of which would need to use I-94.

That stretch has created such a bottleneck, in addition to being the gateway across our state -- those travelling to North Dakota or upper Northwest from the East (Chicago).

This is where adding additional lanes does make sense. It's feasible.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:11 PM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,651,783 times
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well, they could always take Northstar.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:10 PM
 
687 posts, read 1,250,853 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stpontiac View Post
But again, what incentive would those people working in Plymouth have to ride an express bus if there was one? The distance you are talking about is about 8 miles, and I bet even at peak rush hour that doesn't take over 20, maybe 25 minutes at the worst. Do you really think all that many people will drive from their house to the MG station (~5 min), ride down to a Plymouth station (10-12 min), and then either walk or take a local circulator to their office (10 min)?

And again, parking is the under-appreciated variable. I bet a lot of people on those express buses and trains into DT would brave the traffic to drive if they could park for free right by their office door.
I would guess the parking would have a role. But, I would guess that some people would opt to not drive at all. Or some families who would have one (or more) people heading to the Transit Station to catch a bus to Minneapolis anyway. More than 40% of the workers to the one census tract in Plymouth are making less than $40k and more than 15% are making less than $15k. I'd guess some in that wage range wouldn't mind having one less car to pay for.

I also happen to interact with a lot of people who face difficulty due to their families/friends having lack of transportation. So maybe I'm thinking about serving a different demographic than most in this thread.

While it may explain behavior, I'm a bit bothered by using the lack of parking in downtown Minneapolis as a justification for having the vast majority of transit run through there. Do we really want the transit system to be subsidizing well-paid workers at well off companies at what's probably the most expensive real estate in the state? Would it be too much to ask that those companies build the cost of parking into their plans? Or instead that those companies pay for the transit that's being subsidized to support their businesses?

Frankly, I'm much more interested in subsidizing a ride so someone who couldn't get there otherwise can hold a retail job somewhere. I could see things differently if the express buses were making money, but it seems even those that are full need to be subsidized.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:52 PM
 
Location: MN
3,971 posts, read 9,640,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
well, they could always take Northstar.
No, they can't.

It's not that easy.

To liberal purists it is, but it's not feasible.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
5,147 posts, read 7,448,115 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by knke0204 View Post
Since no one seems to want to acknowledge the fact that the peripheral parts of the metro saw substantial growth 1990-2010, I'll focus in on the Northwest Exurbs and the I-94 Corridor. These communities combined had a population of 23,165 combined in 1990, assuming Otsego's unincorporated population of 500, and Frankurt Township's population of 500 before being annexed into St. Michael.

That population total grew to 91,596 in 2010. That's an increase of 68,431 people in 20 years, or 3,421 persons a year. That's nearly a 300% increase in population in that time. In that time there were no additional lanes added to Interstate 94, eastbound or westbound from County Road 30 to Monticello. It can be assumed that the majority of those living in that corridor commute to the downtowns of either St. Paul or Minneapolis or surrounding suburbs of high employment - Eden Prairie, Brooklyn Park, Plymouth, etc.... All of which would need to use I-94.

That stretch has created such a bottleneck, in addition to being the gateway across our state -- those travelling to North Dakota or upper Northwest from the East (Chicago).

This is where adding additional lanes does make sense. It's feasible.
So what if the population grew. You could add FIVE million, and if they do not vote for legislators who care about anything but the taxes paid by rich people, you won't get what you want. As for adding lanes, historical experience is that they fill up as soon as they are done. Also, acknowledge the fact that there's a huge backlog of infrastructure repaid all over the state. Any money raised by gas taxes is needed to make up for decades of neglect. Hundreds of bridges are dangerously decayed. Not that Minnesota is in any way different from other states. All the money went into adding lanes for commuters who all insist on driving places at the same time, leaving all those lanes unused probably 20 hours a day.

While you have time on your hands during your commutes, take time to observe how fast traffic moves in a direction you are not going. I've noticed that for the last 40 years. People rush off in a mass to buy up houses in some new place, resulting in traffic jams coming out of that place. But is the highway system really full? Hardly. It is part time gridlock. Adding capacity just means more empty pavement most times of the day.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
5,147 posts, read 7,448,115 times
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Quote:

New data from the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) show the average American drove 9,360 miles in 2012—44 fewer miles than they drove in 2011. More surprising is that the peak in miles driven per person (aka vehicle miles traveled, VMT) occurred back in 2004, when Americans, on average, drove 10,118 miles. Driving per person is down 7.5 percent over the last 8 years. This persistent decrease in driving is occurring as transit ridership, bicycling, and walking are all increasing (e.g. The American Public Transit Public Association just announced a record 10.5 billion rides on US public transit in 2012; the 2012 Bike Walk Twin Cities Count Report shows that in the Twin Cities over the last 6 years bicycling is up by 51 percent and walking by 24 percent).
Transit for Livable Communities
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:11 PM
 
643 posts, read 1,034,228 times
Reputation: 471
Ambitious transit plan needed for Twin Cities
Ambitious transit plan needed for Twin Cities | Minnesota Public Radio News

Doesn't seem to answer the concerns of this thread....
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:49 AM
 
687 posts, read 1,250,853 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever View Post
Those miles-driven-per-year figures correlate really well with payroll employment. Which would also explain the "surprising" peak in 2004 or so.

I'm guessing walking/biking numbers don't have much effect. People driving to/from work probably does.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:39 AM
 
1,114 posts, read 2,415,512 times
Reputation: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by northsub View Post
I would guess the parking would have a role. But, I would guess that some people would opt to not drive at all. Or some families who would have one (or more) people heading to the Transit Station to catch a bus to Minneapolis anyway. More than 40% of the workers to the one census tract in Plymouth are making less than $40k and more than 15% are making less than $15k. I'd guess some in that wage range wouldn't mind having one less car to pay for.

I also happen to interact with a lot of people who face difficulty due to their families/friends having lack of transportation. So maybe I'm thinking about serving a different demographic than most in this thread.

While it may explain behavior, I'm a bit bothered by using the lack of parking in downtown Minneapolis as a justification for having the vast majority of transit run through there. Do we really want the transit system to be subsidizing well-paid workers at well off companies at what's probably the most expensive real estate in the state? Would it be too much to ask that those companies build the cost of parking into their plans? Or instead that those companies pay for the transit that's being subsidized to support their businesses?

Frankly, I'm much more interested in subsidizing a ride so someone who couldn't get there otherwise can hold a retail job somewhere. I could see things differently if the express buses were making money, but it seems even those that are full need to be subsidized.
Don't get me wrong, in principle I'm totally in favor of more suburb-to-suburb transit, and especially for the lower-income folks you mention. I occasionally ride the 850 or 852 buses from Anoka/Coon Rapids, and its clear that the non-express portions of that route primarily serve lower-income people.

I'm just skeptical of the idea that there there is enough demand to support that kind of bus service at the level it would need to be effective for anyone, much less to support light-rail as some have advocated. Some act like the lack of suburb-suburb bus options is an affront foisted on them by Minneapolis. But the suburban transit authorities could get together and run express buses between the suburbs, and yet they don't (with a few exceptions).
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
5,147 posts, read 7,448,115 times
Reputation: 1578
Here's a page about the Metropolitan Council eager bus riders or wannabes should read:
Transit for Livable Communities
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