Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Minnesota > Minneapolis - St. Paul
 [Register]
Minneapolis - St. Paul Twin Cities
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-10-2013, 09:35 PM
 
687 posts, read 1,252,432 times
Reputation: 323

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever View Post
White Bear Lake gets rush hour service by the 262 line that runs to downtown St Paul. From there, you can get anywhere in the metro. I also know from research about taking a bus to see my doctor at a Vadnais Heights clinic that one terminates in the shopping center north of 96 where it crosses Centerville Rd. Between that bus and 262, I have two ways to get to or close to 96 and Centerville.
First off, the point isn't to be able to get to downtown St. Paul. I'm looking for a way to get to downtown White Bear Lake. I think the focus on getting to St. Paul or Minneapolis is the source of the problem. There's generally extremely sparse local service. The service that does exist isn't of much use to people who live in the area unless they happen to be going to St. Paul or Minneapolis. I guess I'm looking for something that can at least approximate the kind of bus service that exists in any town of 30,000 outside of the metro.

About the routes in White Bear Lake mentioned:

The 262 doen't go through White Bear Lake at all. I'm not even sure if it gets as far east as Vadnais Heights (would have to look up where the border is exactly). Maybe you meant the 265? That is the only route that does go to downtown White Bear Lake. But, to use that as a route to/from downtown White Bear you would need to arrive by 7:30 am and leave after 3:30 pm. And even to use that, you would need to get on the bus somewhere within 2 miles west of downtown White Bear. I would stand by that as "essentially inaccessible".

At 96 and Centerville I'm guessing you mean the 275? I'll give you that if you work near 96 and 35E/Centerville Road, you live near one of 3 locations to the north of there, and you work from 8-5 (so forget about using it for a trip to Cub), then that route would be of use. Of course you're still a 2.5 mile walk to 35E and County Rd E.

I'm not sure what the other route you mean is that will get you close to 96 and Centerville. The 265? That would only be useful is you planned to arrive at 6pm and leave at 6am. I'd guess the vast majority of the businesses are closed for most of that time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-10-2013, 09:49 PM
 
687 posts, read 1,252,432 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
I assume that a large percentage of the 81 million Metro Transit rides last year were logged by repeat customers, but I think your point is still valid. And that's a LOT of car trips averted!

Interestingly, last year suburb-to-suburb routes did see their ridership increase dramatically last year, to a total of 1.7 million rides. Suburban local buses still only make up 2% of the total, but I would imagine that demand will grow in the future, especially as transit-oriented developments continue to expand in some suburban locations, or as already more "urban" in form areas like Richfield (just as an example that I'm more familiar with) continue to grow along existing transit corridors (like along 66th, which already has what appears to be popular high-frequency bus service). I'm assuming that things will also improve once the Southwest LRT really gets going. After it opens, of course, but even before then as development really gets underway. And I'm not familiar with the current transportation in the northern suburbs, but I'm sure there's room for growth there. And I see that while Northstar's overall numbers are down, the number of commuters (as opposed to the special events crowd) is up quite a bit, which seems promising.

https://www.metrotransit.org/metro-t...ops-81-million
Frankly, I think Northstar is the problem, not the solution. It's designed to move people from the stations to Minneapolis. And there's probably not much chance of it being more than that without giving a whole pile of money to BNSF (or whatever railroad owns the tracks).

Very rough calculation makes me think that for the cost of the Fridley station alone you could run the route I suggested 6 times a day each direction (including gas, drivers, the cost of a couple of buses) for something like 20 years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2013, 10:21 PM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,679,352 times
Reputation: 6776
I know Northstar has been a bit of a bust, but do you think that the stations have any potential to be transit hubs for more local routes? I know there are still all sorts of redevelopment plans in place around many of the stations.

I really know very little about Northstar, and am thinking that once the weather warms up a bit I will make it part of my summer goal to do some more exploring in the northern suburbs, and perhaps check out some of the stations. I'll be doing that with a car, though; part of the reason I don't spend as much time in the northern suburbs is because it is a hassle to get to some of those areas by bus. Kind of surprising about White Bear Lake, though; I had never thought about it, but would have assumed that they could handle some increased local bus service. Maybe not high-frequency service, but at least a local route that runs through downtown every half hour or so during the daytime. Express commuter bus to St. Paul as the only option seems incredibly underserved for a community of its size!

Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 03-10-2013 at 10:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2013, 05:09 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,185,650 times
Reputation: 10694
Quote:
Originally Posted by dravogadro View Post
I'm under the impression that metro transit use in the city stayed relatively unchanged while the growth they experienced was for the express and suburban cross-town routes.

I also think it is a little disingenuous to claim there are only 260,000 users. I believe that number represents riders per day? Do you really think the same 260,000 people are using the bus per day?
That's the number that the Metro Transit gave....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2013, 07:24 AM
 
134 posts, read 338,034 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Potential doesn't equal use--only about 267,000 people use the bus system, including those coming in from the suburbs....even in Minneapolis and St. Paul the usage is low--why have it at all then--for the rest of us to subsidize and not be able to use....
If you transferred the 81 million riders per year on transit into cars on the road, that would make everyone's life just a little bit more difficult. Transit times would drastically increase, air quality would suffer, roads would have to be repaved more frequently, businesses would suffer. A metro area cannot compete without a decent transit system. Every person I interview asks about transit and how easy it is to get to work. It really is a factor into which city they choose to live in. Our system is not great- but at least it's moving in the right direction and lines are being added. It just should have happened years ago.

Yep, mass transit is always subsidized, but so are roads, schools and many other things you may not choose to use or not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2013, 07:39 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,185,650 times
Reputation: 10694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libby01 View Post
If you transferred the 81 million riders per year on transit into cars on the road, that would make everyone's life just a little bit more difficult. Transit times would drastically increase, air quality would suffer, roads would have to be repaved more frequently, businesses would suffer. A metro area cannot compete without a decent transit system. Every person I interview asks about transit and how easy it is to get to work. It really is a factor into which city they choose to live in. Our system is not great- but at least it's moving in the right direction and lines are being added. It just should have happened years ago.

Yep, mass transit is always subsidized, but so are roads, schools and many other things you may not choose to use or not.
So, once again, build the transit system where people drive--the 494/694 loop and stop building useless lines. I've said many times, the rail system should loop around 494/694 with spokes off on the 35's, Cedar and 94. That would alleviate at least half, if not more, of the congestion in the metro since 90+% of people living in the metro work on the 494/694 loop....people can't use it if it does't exist....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2013, 08:28 AM
 
1,114 posts, read 2,418,566 times
Reputation: 550
A question GG: For someone like your son or your husband, how much of a penalty in travel time would they be willing to take to be able to use public transit? i.e. if it takes them 20 min to drive to work, would they use public transit if it took 25 min? 30? 40?

I guess cost would factor into that as well, so how much would they be willing to pay for public transit that only took 10% longer than driving?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2013, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Twin Cities
5,833 posts, read 7,681,567 times
Reputation: 8867
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Tax dollars still go to the Metro Transit though.
All of the transit systems receive their funding from the State Motor Vehicle Excise Tax, the sales tax paid on vehicle sales. At least one-third of their revenues must come from fares.

I suppose that you could complain that a portion of your tax dollars go to Metro Transit, but then I could complain that a portion of my taxes go to SW Transit, and an Eden Prairie resident could complain that their taxes are going to MVTA, etc. I'm not sure I see the point in that.

Some suburbs opted out of the Metro Transit system in order to receive their tax support directly and make their own decisions about transit within their communities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
and again--if they built the train/rail where people DRIVE they would ride it....
I would like to see some research to support this statement before I accept it. My own observation is that driving is everyone's first choice, and people only take mass transit when some cost of driving--either in time or money-- exceeds the inconvenience of mass transit. The failure of the North Star Line would seem to demonstrate that people will not ride a train that is built where people drive.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2013, 09:51 AM
 
25,804 posts, read 16,451,635 times
Reputation: 15995
Personally, I think the future of "public transportation" is a huge fleet of self driving vans that will drop you off at your destination and pick you up. They will be hybrid technology and very efficient and maybe even run on alternative, clean fuels.

Personally, I think we should stop wasting money on rails because this new technology is coming. Check out Google Self Driving Cars on youtube.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2013, 10:10 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,185,650 times
Reputation: 10694
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stpontiac View Post
A question GG: For someone like your son or your husband, how much of a penalty in travel time would they be willing to take to be able to use public transit? i.e. if it takes them 20 min to drive to work, would they use public transit if it took 25 min? 30? 40?

I guess cost would factor into that as well, so how much would they be willing to pay for public transit that only took 10% longer than driving?
For the short distance they have to go, 10-15 minutes or so probably. It's a 15 minute drive for our son and about the same for DH. He took the bus quite frequently actually. It was a nice back up when others in the house needed his car for various reasons. It allowed us to stay with 2 cars for 2 extra years. We now have moved up to 3 cars for 5 drivers. He went from the AV transit station to the Burnsville Transit station. Took about 25 minutes via bus because there was one stop in there. He was charged like he was going all the way to Minneapolis though because they didn't have a suburb to suburb fare. For our son, the bus from Rosemount drives RIGHT past his office to get to Minneapolis-seriously-but they won't stop along the way. The bus time would be the same as his drive time since there are no express lanes. Not only could they serve his office building, but they could also stop at Thomson and several other area businesses along the way. We have several friends at Thomson, they would ALL take the bus if they could but there is no option. They all carpool, as does our son. Two of the people he drives do not have vehicles so without him, they couldn't work there. They could, easily, walk to the transit station if that was an option but when you start work at 6:30 am, getting on a bus at 4:30 am for a 2 hour bus trip to go 8 miles, and repeat on the way home---no thanks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Minnesota > Minneapolis - St. Paul
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:31 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top