St. Anthony Park- good schools and neighborhood? (Roseville: buying a house, buying)

[ajo]

I grew up in SAP and my family still lives there. Compared to 10 years ago, there are many many more kids in the neighborhood now. Virtually all of them go to SAP elementary school, but then things split up in the middle/high school years. In my family, half the kids (big family) went private (Breck, SPA) and half went to St Paul Central. Central has an IB program, and kids did great coming out of there. I knew of very few kids who went to Como--most high achieving kids in the neighborhood either went private (mostly SPA) or to Central.

It is a wonderful neighborhood, and I would dearly love to move back there. Since I'm not sure I can afford it, we are looking at Roseville and Mounds View school districts. But these are so much more suburban and less walkable that I'm not that enthused. Another possibility would be the University Grove area, which is attached to SAP but attends Roseville schools (Brimhall and Roseville Middle/High).

Not to knock Prospect Park, but that neighborhood has a different feel than SAP--to me it feels more crowded and "urban". And I do not think that the elementary school is even close in quality to SAP.

[peter02]

Thanks for the info, great to hear the first hand experience. I was able to visit the neighborhood and loved the feel of it. But, I think my concern about the schools has pushed our search to Roseville and Falcon Heights. If I only had an $40,000/year (2 kids) to send my kids to private school...

[stephaniedb]

We are considering the SAP neighborhood right now (2014) and have the same concerns for schools. Is it really that easy to get your kids into Central High with open enrollment? The elementary in the area looks good. Test scores give it a 9 out of 10 for a rank. I'm not sure what we'd do about the middle school option. Can you open enroll for middle school too? Any feedback regarding this would be great with the "2014" perspective since all of these chats were back in 2009.

[cheddar]

The Saint Anthony Park neighborhood is highly sought after by professors at the U. The good houses sell quickly because people have their realtors keeping an eye on properties coming on the market. Murray Middle School is highly regarded and has been considered the best neighborhood middle school in Saint Paul although some think Highland Park Middle School (in an entirely different neighborhood) is now their rival. Although the majority of kindergartners (60-70%) quality for admission into the Capitol Hill gifted magnet (grades 1-8), few choose to go there because the quality of education is so great in SAP. The faculty I know are somewhat equally split between sending kids to Como and Central high school. I would love to live in Saint Anthony Park and I sometimes go to open houses so I can dream about living there! Also, that neighborhood has their own rec center where the youth teams are all really popular -- including their own recreational youth hockey program called Langford Park Hockey.

[stephaniedb]

Thanks so much for the feed back. I just have so many family members in Roseville who think we are crazy for wanting to live in St. Paul and pay those high taxes and have to choose from those poor schools... in their minds. We just love the neighborhood and really feel there isn't anything else similar to it. As an urban planner by heart, this neighborhood has walkability to some things, a sense of community, and character. I just hope we can snag a home there now.

[cheddar]

Originally Posted by peter02

Thanks for the info, great to hear the first hand experience. I was able to visit the neighborhood and loved the feel of it. But, I think my concern about the schools has pushed our search to Roseville and Falcon Heights. If I only had an $40,000/year (2 kids) to send my kids to private school...

Even if you had $40,000 to send kids to private school, your new colleagues at the Saint Paul campus would be incredulous that you chose to go that route with such good public options a few blocks to the west and multiple locations to the north. Some faculty on the Saint Paul campus live to the north in Arden Hills and Shoreview -- you might consider the Mounds View school district.

[Mason3000]

The SAP neighborhood is a non argument. It's the best of the best. Great homes, great community, great shops/cafes, walkable, no crime, all right in the city.

As a parent of 3 girls in the St Paul Public School system I have researched this topic with great care. The schools beyond Elementary are a legitimate concern, but there are great charter schools to consider & alternate viewpoints on the public middle & high schools.

Many people use Greatschools.org to check out schools, I certainly do & I think it's a great first source of data. However, it's important to drill down into the data & not just go by overall score/rating because that's now what directly affects your kids or your family. I encourage parents to look at how their particular demographic scores (look under test scores, then ethnicity) because that's the indicator of who your kids' friends will be & how your kids will actually score.

Statistically poor/minority students score very low on standardized tests & drag down city schools overall scores. There's no way to sugar coat it. I believe this is based primarily on poverty & single parent households, not on genetics or skin color. That said it becomes an important dynamic when looking at city schools.

SAP Elementary: Is a 9 out of 10 on greatschools rankings. If your kids are white they'll score a perfect 10 out of 10 on standardized test scores. African American kids score a 3 out of 10. Where does that leave your kids?

Murray Middle: We start to see poor/minorities being bused in & the greatschools ranking/test scores dip down to a 4 out of 10. If you're white though, your kid will still score a 9 out of 10 on standardized test scores. i.e. The white kids, living in SAP (not bused in), who grow up in the community together, play sports at Langford Park/Rec Center together (kids soccer is big), then go to Murray together will have no drop-off or negative affect on their education or safety. If your family is African American, then statistically your kid is likely to score a 1 out of 10 & you may want to look at a better fit.

SP Central: I'll put Central up against anyone in a math contest or robotics tournament. The smartest kids in the city attend Central. I know kids that have transferred to local private schools from Central and are literally a full year ahead. The kids behind the seriously competitive students, who're just good A & B students are almost entirely in the AP/IB programs & also achieve/go to college just like any good suburban High School. You can see Central's overall greatschools rating is a 6, with white kids scoring a perfect 10 & African American kids scoring a 3 out of 10. GolfGal is passionate about the South suburbs, but often times that translates negatively into overzealous bashing of the city schools, so take her advice with a grain of salt. Central's not some scary prison, the reality is Central draws draws middle/upper middle class family's from the top areas of the city including Summit Hill, Grand Ave, Mac/Groveland, Merriam Park, Saint Anthony Park, et al. In the school itself, the AP/IB kids are on one floor, the regular school students are on a separate floor. Your kids absolutely won't feel out of place regardless of what color or socioeconomic background they come from.

Como Park HS: White kids score an 8 out of 10, African American kids score a 3 out of 10. Again, what demographic does your child fall into?

Charter Schools In St Paul: This is where I think you might find a nice fit as your kids move onto Middle & High School. Charter schools are very much like private schools (uniforms, high academic/behavioral standards) without the tuition. In St Paul we have some absolutely fantastic ones including....

St Paul Conservatory for Performing Arts: If your kid is artsy this is the perfect school & they grade out at a perfect 10 of 10. It's downtown, not in SAP but they do have busing from your area so at least it's an option if your kids are into that stuff.

Nova Classical Academy: Has has a FANTASTIC reputation & a waiting list a mile long with an annual lottery for the open spots. What many parents do is apply at Nova each year while their kids are in grade school until they get a spot & then send their kids to Nova for the rest of Elementary, Middle & High School. Also, they have sibling preference so once the first sibling is in, the other one gets in usually. They score a 9 out of 10 by greatschools.org standards.

TC German Immersion School: I don't know that much about this school other than that it's right by SAP and scores a 9 on their scale. I've heard great, great things, but honestly don't know the details.

Twin Cities Academy: Was ranked the #1 school in the state at bridging the achievement gap last year. They have a very good reputation & 12:1 student/teacher ratio. They too have a waiting list/lottery, but it's the same concept as Nova, apply until your kid gets in & then you're set for Middle & High School. They also have sibling preference. TCA scores an 8 on greatschools.org's rankings with white students scoring a 9.

Great River School: Very close to SAP, is highly regarded and scores a 7, with white students scoring a 9.

Cyber Village Academy: Also very close to SAP, but I don't know much about it other than it scores a respectable 7, again with their white students scoring a 9. St. Paul Public Charter Schools - St. Paul, MN | GreatSchools

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by stephaniedb

Thanks so much for the feed back. I just have so many family members in Roseville who think we are crazy for wanting to live in St. Paul and pay those high taxes and have to choose from those poor schools... in their minds. We just love the neighborhood and really feel there isn't anything else similar to it. As an urban planner by heart, this neighborhood has walkability to some things, a sense of community, and character. I just hope we can snag a home there now.

People in the suburbs sometimes have no clue that there are areas in the city that are much more wealthy & prestigious than the suburbs. Tell your colleagues at work you live in SAP & they'll think say "That's such a great neighborhood, I'm jealous!!!". Tell your colleagues at work you live in Roseville "That's nice.". I really encourage you to go check out the schools too. Reading data & reviews is nice, but it's like buying a house. Your instinct will tell you "Yes, this is the one" or "Nope, not the right fit".

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by cheddar

Even if you had $40,000 to send kids to private school, your new colleagues at the Saint Paul campus would be incredulous that you chose to go that route with such good public options a few blocks to the west and multiple locations to the north. Some faculty on the Saint Paul campus live to the north in Arden Hills and Shoreview -- you might consider the Mounds View school district.

This. Your colleagues will scratch their heads why you would choose not to live in SAP if you have the opportunity. You could look at Mounds View, it's a nice suburb, but certainly doesn't have the character of SAP.

[stephaniedb]

Again amazing feedback!!! Thanks for all the details on the schools. I feel like I'm making the right decision!!!