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Old 02-12-2013, 10:28 AM
 
85 posts, read 193,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete6032 View Post
Considering that most of us who grew up in MPLS and suburbs only ever venture out on the west side, and those who grew up in St. Paul and suburbs only hang out on the east side of the cities, I can see why it might feel half as large as it really is.
Funny, but true for many people. The fact that these are twin cities creates different spheres of living/working that make it feel smaller, even if you're living in one of the suburbs and commuting to one of the downtowns. I've lived in a far east suburb/exurb, right in Minneapolis, and in a first-ring suburb. The nice thing is that you can live in the convenience of a smaller sphere, but still have close access to all the amenities of the rest of the metro since it is so easy to get around.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:29 AM
 
1 posts, read 3,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete6032 View Post
Considering that most of us who grew up in MPLS and suburbs only ever venture out on the west side, and those who grew up in St. Paul and suburbs only hang out on the east side of the cities, I can see why it might feel half as large as it really is.
As a transplant living in the Twin Cities, this is the one thing that confuses me. The entire metro is pretty accessible by car and the core is not that spread out, so why not do some exploring?

This phenomenon isn't isolated to Minneapolis-St. Paul. My friend, a professor here in MSP, was born and raised in Central Park East in Manhattan. He said he had lived in Maine, Massachusetts, and Minnesota but hadn't been to Central Park West until his mid 30s. His reason? For daily living, there was no reason to go there. His family and friends liked the familiar. There were a couple of good Seinfeld episodes about that feeling within a city.

To answer the original thread question, no Minneapolis-St. Paul does not feel like the 16th largest metro at any stretch. There are three main reasons.

1. US Census counts counties, not true metropolitan communities.
Isanti, Becker, Cokato, New Prague, Randolph, and Baldwin (Wisconsin!) are not part of Minneapolis-St. Paul. They are small country towns in the middle of the country. If you have to drive past miles of farm land to get to the next town, it is not in a metropolitan region! Yet those towns account for part of the 16th largest metro in the United States. Even a section of southeast St. Cloud counts towards MSP's metro population.

2. Minneapolis and St. Paul combined is 672,821, but are still very separate.
That's about the same size of El Paso, Texas. It's hard to even combine these two cities for population because Minneapolitans do not go to or consider themselves part of St. Paul. Same goes for St. Paulites despite the only difference being a river and a line on a map. So really Minneapolis is 387,753 strong. That makes them the 48th largest U.S. city behind Tulsa, Raleigh, Colorado Springs, Tucson, Albuquerque, Oklahoma City, and a notch above Wichita. St. Paul's list is worse. They're on par with Toledo. It would feel much larger if everyone started acting like the Twin Cities--government, companies, and residents.

3. Population Density makes this place still feel mid major.
The Twin Cities lack of a dense population detracts from the big city feel. Minneapolis-St. Paul has less population density than Detroit based on people per square mile (they both have similar square mileage). Detroit has lost over 61 percent of its population in the last 60 years and is still more densely populated than M-SP. There is no real density or city feel to it outside of downtowns and two or three neighborhoods. It's a mid-sized city that happens to be big and important.
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Middletown, CT
993 posts, read 1,525,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Midwesty Run View Post
1. US Census counts counties, not true metropolitan communities.
Isanti, Becker, Cokato, New Prague, Randolph, and Baldwin (Wisconsin!) are not part of Minneapolis-St. Paul. They are small country towns in the middle of the country. If you have to drive past miles of farm land to get to the next town, it is not in a metropolitan region! Yet those towns account for part of the 16th largest metro in the United States. Even a section of southeast St. Cloud counts towards MSP's metro population
Actually, they are part of the metro. This happens in other metros too, not just MSP. For a county to be in the metro, a certain percentage of its population must commute into the metro. You are confusing it with the urban area. The Twin Cities are still the 16th largest urban area
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Limbo
6,496 posts, read 6,563,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Midwesty Run View Post
As a transplant living in the Twin Cities, this is the one thing that confuses me. The entire metro is pretty accessible by car and the core is not that spread out, so why not do some exploring?

This phenomenon isn't isolated to Minneapolis-St. Paul. My friend, a professor here in MSP, was born and raised in Central Park East in Manhattan. He said he had lived in Maine, Massachusetts, and Minnesota but hadn't been to Central Park West until his mid 30s. His reason? For daily living, there was no reason to go there. His family and friends liked the familiar. There were a couple of good Seinfeld episodes about that feeling within a city.

To answer the original thread question, no Minneapolis-St. Paul does not feel like the 16th largest metro at any stretch. There are three main reasons.

1. US Census counts counties, not true metropolitan communities.
Isanti, Becker, Cokato, New Prague, Randolph, and Baldwin (Wisconsin!) are not part of Minneapolis-St. Paul. They are small country towns in the middle of the country. If you have to drive past miles of farm land to get to the next town, it is not in a metropolitan region! Yet those towns account for part of the 16th largest metro in the United States. Even a section of southeast St. Cloud counts towards MSP's metro population.

2. Minneapolis and St. Paul combined is 672,821, but are still very separate.
That's about the same size of El Paso, Texas. It's hard to even combine these two cities for population because Minneapolitans do not go to or consider themselves part of St. Paul. Same goes for St. Paulites despite the only difference being a river and a line on a map. So really Minneapolis is 387,753 strong. That makes them the 48th largest U.S. city behind Tulsa, Raleigh, Colorado Springs, Tucson, Albuquerque, Oklahoma City, and a notch above Wichita. St. Paul's list is worse. They're on par with Toledo. It would feel much larger if everyone started acting like the Twin Cities--government, companies, and residents.

3. Population Density makes this place still feel mid major.
The Twin Cities lack of a dense population detracts from the big city feel. Minneapolis-St. Paul has less population density than Detroit based on people per square mile (they both have similar square mileage). Detroit has lost over 61 percent of its population in the last 60 years and is still more densely populated than M-SP. There is no real density or city feel to it outside of downtowns and two or three neighborhoods. It's a mid-sized city that happens to be big and important.

Detroit: 5,144 ppsm, 2010
St. Paul: 5,484 ppsm, 2010
Minneapolis: 7,088 ppsm, 2010

Source: Detroit
Source: St. Paul
Source: Minneapolis

Minneapolis and St. Paul are mid-sized cities because they are of limited area, roughly 50 square miles each. Regardless, both Minneapolis and St. Paul are more densely populated than Detroit. I'm also not entirely sure if you're referencing the core cities or the metro areas, respectively, in point 3.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:59 PM
 
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Are most main cities in metro areas small like Mpls/St. P, or is the main city usually larger in terms of total land?
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Columbus OH
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Yes, the Twin Cities definitely feel like the 16th largest metro area:

The metro area ranks 18th in size for office according to CBRE, with over 66 million square feet. This inventory excludes corporate owned offices, which, due to the large number of HQ's in the metro, would add significantly to that amount. If markets like New Jersey and Orange County were added to their respective dominant metro areas (NYC and LA), the Twin Cities would move up in the rankings.

Data for downtown inventories is more difficult to come by, but downtown Minneapolis typically ranks around 15th - 18th in terms of office inventory. Driving around central Minneapolis makes it appear significant in size to me. Imaging taking a drive from Midway west down University Avenue through The U of M, Stadium Village and Dinkytown, cross over the tenth avenue bridge to Seven Corners, then west down Washington Avenue and 2nd Street past the Guthrie, Mill CityMuseum, MacPhail to West River Parkway along the Mississippi Mile up to Plymouth Avenue, head west over to Washington Avenue, then head back to the downtown core through the North Loop, drive the downtown core to Loring Park, then head south Eat Street then over to Lyn-Lake and Uptown. Apart from the top 15 metro areas in the country, there are very few other metros where such a drive could occur. And I haven't even included the central part of St. paul (Grand Avenue/Summit/Selby to the Capitol area/downtown then up West 7th Street).

The I-494 Corridor and the I-394 Corridors present a high level of commercial activity with mid-rise/high-rise offices and hotels, retail centers that rival those the largest metro areas.

For those who don't think the Twin Cities feels like the 16th largest MSA, what metros that have smaller populations feel larger?
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
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16th seems like a low number. How is it supposed to "feel"?
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,991 posts, read 8,796,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MplsTodd View Post

For those who don't think the Twin Cities feels like the 16th largest MSA, what metros that have smaller populations feel larger?
In my opinion, the only way a smaller metro can feel larger is when it's very densely populated and/or thriving. For example, San Diego, CA is about the same size as the Twin Cities but it's more compact and has a very young entertainment-centric economy that may make it feel larger than the Twin Cities. Pittsburgh or Baltimore could also be examples of metros that can sometimes feel larger (to the untrained eye, but the more I learn how to view cities the more I can pick up on things that tell me about the city's size or prominence).
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Salinas, CA
15,412 posts, read 5,201,946 times
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I would say San Diego and Minneapolis are fairly even in that regard for much of the year with San Diego having the obvious advantage in winter (you can do outdoor dining most of the year there vs. seven months in Minn, etc). I am familiar with San Diego and have two friends there. The gas lamp area and the new Petco ballpark helped the area in the same way that Target Field and the warehouse district helped Minneapolis. Then you have to consider Minneapolis' thriving uptown area and the fact the U of Minn is just two miles from downtown Mpls where as SDSU and UCSD are each seven miles from downtown SD. If you are ever down there(SD), you will also notice a lot of retirees in the area (a lot of retired military people); nothing to rival Florida, though. They have improved the scene for young people.

You may be right about Pittsburgh and Baltimore (not as familiar with those cities). I do know that Pittsburgh downtown is of significant size, while Baltimore's is very small for a city its size, but their activities are mainly near the inner harbor.

I think MplsTodd's observations were "spot on" and then you consider the Twin Cities' cultural rankings which are consistently in the top ten (theater specifically is easily top five).
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:37 PM
 
1,816 posts, read 2,696,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Midwesty Run View Post
As a transplant living in the Twin Cities, this is the one thing that confuses me. The entire metro is pretty accessible by car and the core is not that spread out, so why not do some exploring?

This phenomenon isn't isolated to Minneapolis-St. Paul. My friend, a professor here in MSP, was born and raised in Central Park East in Manhattan. He said he had lived in Maine, Massachusetts, and Minnesota but hadn't been to Central Park West until his mid 30s. His reason? For daily living, there was no reason to go there. His family and friends liked the familiar. There were a couple of good Seinfeld episodes about that feeling within a city.

To answer the original thread question, no Minneapolis-St. Paul does not feel like the 16th largest metro at any stretch. There are three main reasons.

1. US Census counts counties, not true metropolitan communities.
Isanti, Becker, Cokato, New Prague, Randolph, and Baldwin (Wisconsin!) are not part of Minneapolis-St. Paul. They are small country towns in the middle of the country. If you have to drive past miles of farm land to get to the next town, it is not in a metropolitan region! Yet those towns account for part of the 16th largest metro in the United States. Even a section of southeast St. Cloud counts towards MSP's metro population.

2. Minneapolis and St. Paul combined is 672,821, but are still very separate.
That's about the same size of El Paso, Texas. It's hard to even combine these two cities for population because Minneapolitans do not go to or consider themselves part of St. Paul. Same goes for St. Paulites despite the only difference being a river and a line on a map. So really Minneapolis is 387,753 strong. That makes them the 48th largest U.S. city behind Tulsa, Raleigh, Colorado Springs, Tucson, Albuquerque, Oklahoma City, and a notch above Wichita. St. Paul's list is worse. They're on par with Toledo. It would feel much larger if everyone started acting like the Twin Cities--government, companies, and residents.

3. Population Density makes this place still feel mid major.
The Twin Cities lack of a dense population detracts from the big city feel. Minneapolis-St. Paul has less population density than Detroit based on people per square mile (they both have similar square mileage). Detroit has lost over 61 percent of its population in the last 60 years and is still more densely populated than M-SP. There is no real density or city feel to it outside of downtowns and two or three neighborhoods. It's a mid-sized city that happens to be big and important.
1. But this would apply to all metros, not just MSP. So I'm assuming it wouldn't particularly matter.

2. I might not consider myself "part" of St. Paul as a Minneapolitan (though because I live in SE Minneapolis, the boundary is purely political as I'm east of the river!), one can still think of the two as one urban core, even if they are separate cities. After all, Manhattanites and Brooklynites are very separate, but we still count them together (for more obvious reasons). It would also be better to rank cities not just by population but also their density. Of the cities ranking near Minneapolis, only two have comparable densities. The rest are large thanks to their enormous size. In fact, most of cities with similar populations have densities lower than Apple Valley and are closer to the density of Lakeville than Minneapolis.

3. I can only assume you mean Metro Detroit and the Twin Cities metro area, because the core cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul have higher densities than Detroit at this point. But I'm not quite sure why we're comparing the two? Detroit was at one time a big city and is built like one...just with most of the population living in the suburbs. For a regional area, the Twin Cities is actually fairly dense, but no, we're not Manhattan.
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