Suburb gangs (Minneapolis, St. Paul, Plymouth: transplants, real estate market, crime rates)

[Cruz Azul Guy]

Think there are no gangs in the suburbs? Think again

Golfgal, I was wondering what your thoughts were on this article that just came out in the Star Tribune. You have mentioned numerous times that one of the main benefits of putting your kids in suburb schools as opposed to city schools is that they won't be threatened by gangs. Some of the areas cited in this article as being affected by gang activity are also some of the same areas you are consistently recommending for transplants including Chaska, Eden Prairie and Northfield.

It was quoted in the article "Last year, police in the suburban counties of Scott, Dakota, Carver, Washington, Anoka and Rice came into contact with gang members at least 4,200 times, ranging from brushes with the law at traffic stops to arrests for serious crimes."

That being said, can the gang argument still realistically be used as an advantage of suburban schools in the city school/suburban school argument?

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by Slig

Think there are no gangs in the suburbs? Think again

Golfgal, I was wondering what your thoughts were on this article that just came out in the Star Tribune. You have mentioned numerous times that one of the main benefits of putting your kids in suburb schools as opposed to city schools is that they won't be threatened by gangs. Some of the areas cited in this article as being affected by gang activity are also some of the same areas you are consistently recommending for transplants including Chaska, Eden Prairie and Northfield.

It was quoted in the article "Last year, police in the suburban counties of Scott, Dakota, Carver, Washington, Anoka and Rice came into contact with gang members at least 4,200 times, ranging from brushes with the law at traffic stops to arrests for serious crimes."

That being said, can the gang argument still realistically be used as an advantage of suburban schools in the city school/suburban school argument?

Good questions Slig. I guess I never realized just how bad the suburban gang problem really is. Fortunately I live in North Minneapolis, where we're lucky to have the buffers of Golden Valley, Robbinsdale, Brooklyn Center, etc. to shield us from all of the 2nd-tier/ outer suburban gang violence in the Twin Cities.

[Clifford63]

I would really like to see a color map that has school districts shaded based on reported gang activity per capita. That would would show something meaningfull.

They did post some numbers in the article. These would suggest that there are 3 encounters in Hennepin or Ramsey for every 1 in the remaining counties. They did seem to go on a county level, which I find curious. Minneapolis proper has about 1/3 of Hennepin county population? Why not break it down a bit further. I will go out on a limb here and say there are less gang issues in Rockford, Wayzata, Plymouth, etc, etc etc than Minneapolis. Using aggregated data at the county level to compare is not going to give a strong correlation on individual schools. It might be legit if they did Minneapolis vs rest of Hennepin county.

I do think it is wise for suburban districts to be proactive and do what they can to deal with issues like this. Clearly there are issues in the burbs, but this article is very questionable. You could make an argument that data was chopped up in a way that is either incompetent, or politically motivated.

I truly would be interested in seeing some data that makes sense.

[green_mariner]

I have not heard about gang violence in the suburban areas of the TC area other than BP, BC, and Anoka.

[Cruz Azul Guy]

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs32/32146/32146p.pdf

The map on page 23 of this report estimates the number of gang members by county. Hennepin County = 3500-9999
Ramsey County = 2500-3499
Anoka County = 2500-3499
Dakota County = 2500-3499
Stearns County = 2500-3499
Sherburne, Wright, Carver, Scott, Rice and Washington Counties = 500-2499 in each

[Camden Northsider]

I wouldn't write the article or its facts off altogether- there are a number of TC suburbs whose homicide rates, per capita, are at or above Minneapolis' this year.

I'm surprised that people were brave enough to write and/or be quoted in this article in the first place. Imagine how many homeowners' associations are going to be rioting after an article like this comes out. Most people, esp. most folks in the suburbs, know that so much of their local real estate market is based solely on imagery/ perception- if suburbs don't have that perception of being "safe, peaceful, quiet, and family-friendly with good schools", they've basically got nothing going for them (unless they're a well-established town in their own right), and articles like this don't help the already struggling markets out in the burbs. I imagine a number of folks in Chaska will be calling their realtors today to talk about selling (and/or gripe at their realtors for steering them to these areas)- keep the phone lines clear Robert P Stewart!!

[gatorinmn]

Clifford has this exactly right. No school is immune to gang problems if it is in a metropolitan area, regardless of whether it is inside the city or outside. That said, the article highlights that gang problems are much more severe and pervasive in the inner-city schools than in the suburbs.

Remember, too, that some of the counties mentioned -- e.g., Dakota -- include "suburbs" with different demographics from the rest of the county and which have higher crime rates, e.g., West St. Paul. My guess is that you'd find a significantly higher concentration of gang problems in a West St. Paul school than in, say, a Lakeville school.

It is simply naive to conclude from this article that just because gangs can be found in the cities and in the 'burbs, the amount of gang violence and the severity must be the same in Frogtown as it is in, say, Wayzata.

[gatorinmn]

That's true, but you're missing my broader point. Do you really and honestly believe that gang violence, or incidents of gang activity, are the same in Chaska and Frogtown?

[Huckleberry3911948]

civil rights laws are preventing enforcement of gang laws.
so a game of cat and mouse continues with parents trying to escape the failure called k12 which is defenseless against gangs.
voucher sooner the better.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by gatorinmn

That's true, but you're missing my broader point. Do you really and honestly believe that gang violence, or incidents of gang activity, are the same in Chaska and Frogtown?

Sorry- deleted last post. But to answer your question, no- the cities proper are way denser and have way more people, of course there is more crime. But if you did a per capita analysis, it would be interesting to see how they stack up- it's likely that Mpls/ St. Paul would still be a fair amount higher, but I think many folks in the area drastically blow out of proportion the crime/ school/ whatever else other quality of life indicator when comparing the cities proper to the suburbs, and they too easily forget that there are many areas of the cities proper that have less crime/ better schools than a number of suburban areas. If I wasn't familiar with the cities and had never been here before, by reading a lot of posts on here, I'd get the impression that whenever someone is in the city, they're constantly dodging gunfire- until they cross back over the city limits into the burbs, upon which birds immediately start chirping in unison to the beautiful sounds of a classical violinist playing in the background.