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Clifford, great post. I agree that this is looking at top students, or at least most ambitious and high-achieving students, but I agree that it certainly does prove that at least some local schools with high povery levels (i.e. Henry) still offer a high-quality learning environment for those students who want it.
I looked at some of the test score data for the Minneapolis schools and the achievement gap between different ethnic groups and income levels is a huge factor that affects the overall score. For example, white students not in poverty in the South and Southwest have essentially the same average scores as the best suburban schools, but other ethnic groups and students below the poverty line are well below that, especially in Reading/English, although Math was alot more consistent. I would guess the cultural bias in those areas helps to create the discrepancy in test scores, but I'm definitely no expert in the field.
I know this is something the Minneapolis schools have put alot of effort and resources into correcting and from what I've read Patrick Henry has been very successful and curbing the gap.
Actually they are dividing by graduating seniors. This would indicated that there are fair number of kids taking the tests listed. I don't believe the tests are required so I question if students can be forced to take the tests. They can be encouraged, but I think that is just what kids need these days -encouragement to participate at the highest level they are able to. I guess what I take away from this is that some urban schools are doing a good job trying to motivate participation in courses and test that are clearly meant for college prep. This does not tell the entire story, but it does show that kids that want to learn have choices and there are kids that want to learn in these schools. Hard to dismiss that as irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Clifford63
Based on the rankings hovering around 2% for the schools on the list as calculated using graduating seniors, it sounds to me like about 4% of Junior and Seniors (total students, not just IB program) are taking the tests assuming that junior and senior class are about equal, and a decent graduation rate. That would be 40 per 1000 total students that take the tests. What is not clear is how many are taking courses but not taking the tests. This is measured the same for all schools, and it is significant that partcipation rate is pretty good in a number of urban schools.
This ranking is focused on top tier students without a doubt. I have no issues with that and find it releveant because what it is showing really is that top of the pile in some urban schools is about the same as top of the pile in some of the best suburban districts.
If I am thinking kids and schools, what I really want to know is will they have opportunity to thrive in education or not? Do the resouces they need to learn exist? By that I mean do they have good teachers, books and a learning environment whatnot. These are the things you don't have direct ability to control beyond moving. I value this a lot more than looking at average scores on standard tests because nobody aspires to be average.
Urban schools have more poverty and some other challenge for sure, but do these issues inhibit learning for all? This study suggests that it does not for top tier students. I am not exactly the brightest bulb on the tree, but I did work hard in school. I believe thoose that apply themselves will succeed more often than not.
I completely understand why many people focus on school districts and rankings. Cleary because they want kids to learn in the best environment possible. Who does not want the best for kids? Some have means to live where they believe schools are the best and are willing to do that. I find no fault in that, but I don't think it is a given that your kids will learn more, not get bullied etc. My opinion is most kids can do well just about anywhere, and a very important part of that is parent involvement.
This is exactly why these rankings do a disservice to a lot of these schools. Yes, they are comparing the top 1% or so of the students but when the rest of the school has a 45% graduation rate what about them? Everyone says what a great high school Patrick Henry is, for example, but what about the 55% of the kids that DON'T graduate vs the maybe 2 or 3% in the suburban schools. How is this helping the kids that NEED the help and aren't getting it? How is this addressing the real problem of getting the kids and their families to CARE about getting an education so they DO graduate. No, there is nothing wrong what so ever with the school itself, what is wrong is the 55% of the kids that go there that don't care enough to graduate.
This is exactly why these rankings do a disservice to a lot of these schools. Yes, they are comparing the top 1% or so of the students but when the rest of the school has a 45% graduation rate what about them? Everyone says what a great high school Patrick Henry is, for example, but what about the 55% of the kids that DON'T graduate vs the maybe 2 or 3% in the suburban schools. How is this helping the kids that NEED the help and aren't getting it? How is this addressing the real problem of getting the kids and their families to CARE about getting an education so they DO graduate. No, there is nothing wrong what so ever with the school itself, what is wrong is the 55% of the kids that go there that don't care enough to graduate.
I believe I was pretty clear in saying this ranking did not present the entire picture. I find it interesting that some of the urban schools and districts are apparently doing some good things and it was worth comment. Some of these schools have very difficult challenges to solve and it seems very possative that they are having success in some areas. It is not like this is taking anything away from the suburban districts that do well in other rankings because they are right towards the top in this one as well.
Not every person is going to look at the context of each survey and clearly understand what is being measured, but that is ok.
I believe I was pretty clear in saying this ranking did not present the entire picture. I find it interesting that some of the urban schools and districts are apparently doing some good things and it was worth comment. Some of these schools have very difficult challenges to solve and it seems very possative that they are having success in some areas. It is not like this is taking anything away from the suburban districts that do well in other rankings because they are right towards the top in this one as well.
Not every person is going to look at the context of each survey and clearly understand what is being measured, but that is ok.
Sorry if I came off as snippy. I guess the ranking seemed like a good thing as far as showing some urban schools are doing a lot of good. that is what I meant
This is exactly why these rankings do a disservice to a lot of these schools. Yes, they are comparing the top 1% or so of the students but when the rest of the school has a 45% graduation rate what about them? Everyone says what a great high school Patrick Henry is, for example, but what about the 55% of the kids that DON'T graduate vs the maybe 2 or 3% in the suburban schools. How is this helping the kids that NEED the help and aren't getting it? How is this addressing the real problem of getting the kids and their families to CARE about getting an education so they DO graduate. No, there is nothing wrong what so ever with the school itself, what is wrong is the 55% of the kids that go there that don't care enough to graduate.
Golfgal, I agree with you that the good news by no means suggests that we should as a society just shrug our shoulders, give up on those who aren't succeeding, and go our way.
These numbers are relevant, though, for people considering relocating to the Twin Cities and who want to know where to live where their kids can get a good education. In some cities the public schools have really bad reputations (sometimes deserved, sometimes not); parents should now be able to look at this list and realize that they can focus their home search on other factors than just education. Sure, they may still prefer to live somewhere like Eden Prairie, but at least they should feel comfortable knowing that wherever they choose, whether urban or suburban, their kids will have the opportunity for a great education.
Any parent who cares enough to post on that topic is almost by definition an involved parent, and I think we all agree that the children with parents who care and are involved do have an advantage when it comes to success in school. I think that these numbers do show that these kids are just as likely to get what they need (good teachers, quality curriculum, etc.) at schools like Henry as they are in Minnetonka.
School ranking are hard to really understand. On one hand it would be great if the neighborhood your looking into has 10s across the board for that school district your kids would attend..but on the other hand is a school with a rating of 7 really not as good as a school with all 10s? We've been looking at relocating to the western suburbs of Deleno or Buffalo. Deleno has all 10, Buffalo doesn't. But you can get more land in for less $ in Buffalo. It's tricky!!
Golfgal, I agree with you that the good news by no means suggests that we should as a society just shrug our shoulders, give up on those who aren't succeeding, and go our way.
These numbers are relevant, though, for people considering relocating to the Twin Cities and who want to know where to live where their kids can get a good education. In some cities the public schools have really bad reputations (sometimes deserved, sometimes not); parents should now be able to look at this list and realize that they can focus their home search on other factors than just education. Sure, they may still prefer to live somewhere like Eden Prairie, but at least they should feel comfortable knowing that wherever they choose, whether urban or suburban, their kids will have the opportunity for a great education.
Any parent who cares enough to post on that topic is almost by definition an involved parent, and I think we all agree that the children with parents who care and are involved do have an advantage when it comes to success in school. I think that these numbers do show that these kids are just as likely to get what they need (good teachers, quality curriculum, etc.) at schools like Henry as they are in Minnetonka.
This is such a good point, uptown-u! There are some in this forum who completely dismiss the city schools when attempting to advise people who are relocating to the Twin Cities. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Take test scores and rankings with a huge grain of salt. What is right for YOUR individual child and your family may not be what is right for the next person's child and family. If you like a neighborhood or suburb, look beyond rankings to find out how its school would meet your child's needs before jumping in or out.
This is exactly why these rankings do a disservice to a lot of these schools. Yes, they are comparing the top 1% or so of the students but when the rest of the school has a 45% graduation rate what about them? Everyone says what a great high school Patrick Henry is, for example, but what about the 55% of the kids that DON'T graduate vs the maybe 2 or 3% in the suburban schools. How is this helping the kids that NEED the help and aren't getting it? How is this addressing the real problem of getting the kids and their families to CARE about getting an education so they DO graduate. No, there is nothing wrong what so ever with the school itself, what is wrong is the 55% of the kids that go there that don't care enough to graduate.
Golfgal- this is an example of a post that is highly destructive, completely false, misleading, and pulled straight out of thin air.
Patrick Henry Senior High School, or Minneapolis Henry, has an 89% GRADUATION RATE and 80% of its entire student body goes on to 2 or 4 year colleges (see this star tribune article recognizing this statistic: All jazzed up on the North Side (http://www.startribune.com/local/39342662.html?elr=KArksCiUHc3E7_V_nDaycUiD3aPc:_ Yyc:aUU - broken link)). Where are you getting a 45% graduation rate from???? Please do elaborate.
Henry High was one of 3 high schools in MN designated a "top performing school" by Business Week/ Great Schools- here is their methodology, and it has nothing to do with AP/ IB and much more to do with test scores.
Speaking of IB- Patrick Henry made US News & World Report's list of "Top International Baccalaureate High Schools" at the end of last year. 59 schools across the US received this honor (only 2 from MN made it - St. Louis Park Senior High and Henry High) and the methodology was based on the percentage of total senior class that graduated with an IB Diploma (arguably the most prestigious HS diploma a student can possess)- this list had NOTHING to do with how many students were enrolled in IB classes (of which there were many, many more- often only a select few earn the distinction of graduating with IB Diploma in hand), how many took IB tests, nor how many students took AP tests at the school.
Please get your facts straight and link to sources when making decisions to post items that can be viewed as inflammatory and highly destructive to a reputation- not doing so and/or just making things up is a highly reckless/ irresponsible practice that I would assume is not in following of the TOS.
Last edited by Camden Northsider; 06-28-2009 at 09:38 PM..
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CiUHc3E7_V_nDaycUiD3aPc:_ Yyc:aUU - broken link)). Where are you getting a 45% graduation rate from???? Please do elaborate.
