Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
cdubs, I understand your point that relative cost of living is going to depend in part on individual needs and circumstances, but on the car thing, wanted to point out that your not knowing people without a car in the Twin Cities, and knowing lots of people without cars in Chicago, may also be more connected to your individual experiences in each city; if you're living (and working?) in downtown Chicago you're inevitably going to meet more people without cars, just as if you live in a more urban area of Minneapolis you also meet more people without cars. I don't know as many people in Chicago as you do in the Twin Cities, but the people I do know all own cars. I'm sure there are more (as a percentage) of people in Chicago living a carfree life than in Minneapolis, but it's not difficult or even all that unusual (depending on neighborhood) to do so in the more urbanized areas of the Twin Cities. I'm assuming that this particular poster has a car and so this isn't an issue, but decided to post anyway because I don't think it's fair to give other potential transplants the worry that they'll "have" to drive or buy a car if they want to move to the area. They will have to factor that decision into their choice of neighborhood, of course, but that would be true in any city.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 26,086,242 times
Reputation: 3995
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdubs3201
If you are including areas like Hastings, St. Cloud, and maybe even Rochester, then yeah, the twin cities metro is bigger than Chicago, but I was only factoring in what people consider 1st ring suburbs (real suburbs in my eyes).
With all due respect, rather large and influential areas like Eden Prairie, Bloomington, Minnetonka, etc. are all 2nd ring suburbs, Wayzata, Lakeville and Burnsville are all 3rd ring suburbs, etc., and I don't think there's any doubt at all that those are true suburbs and not rural communities.
The Twin Cities metro doesn't stop at the 494/694 loop.
It was an example for me to prove that cost of living is all relative, it's not the same for each person, so it's not fair to say necessarily that the cost of living is higher in one place than another.
Second, of the hundreds, maybe 1,000 people I know in Minneapolis and the Twin Cities, every single one of them owns a vehicle. I've never heard of anyone getting by there without one. But we obviously know different people.
I don't know how many people in Minneapolis get by without a car, but it is not a small number. U of Minnesota is the largest metro campus in the US at over 50K students, and I can say without a doubt that a good number of them do not have the luxury of a car. This does not even touch the population that chooses not to have a car out of general principal, or those who's financial circumstances dictate car free living, which are also non trivial. Just because you know some small percentage of people in Minneapolis relative to the entire population, does not mean that because they all own cars that this can be extrapolated to the entire population in a meaningful way.
Most legit comps are based on the premise of "all things being equal". That is not always simple because things are not always going to compare extremely well. My step son is probably in a similar situation as yourself, so this would be an example of a fair comp. He is 20 something, no car, no ties, no real commitments, single .... He is paying $525 for a small but nice apartment in Whittier neighboorhood (safe, central, urban) and $75 for all the rest of his utilities including cell phone and internet. Can you do that in Chicago? I didn't think so.
It costs more to live in Chicago with the premise being you have a similar lifestyle. It is a fact, so don't be trying to cloud that up with weak statements about individual circumstances as a justification to compare apples and oranges. There is a lot of data to support this. I can't post links to other data souces due to TOS, but City-data.com says that the cost of living in Twin Cities region is among the lowest in the 25 largest cities of the US. //www.city-data.com/us-cities/T...s-Economy.html
Some jobs will pay you more in Chicago, which has been covered. If an individual person makes enough extra money in Chicago, then it all evens out to be similar. If not, Minneapolis is going to offer more bang for the buck in terms living expenses.
At the end of the day it all comes down to an individual decision on personal preferences in a number of categories. I respect people's opinions long as they are not presented as fact. That is why I think many of your posts are crap. You state opinons and generalizations as facts instead of presenting opinions and allowing others to make conclusions for themselves.
I have nothing against Chicago. It is a fine city. Apparently you feel strongly that it exceeds Minneapolis in many ways, which is fine. I am quite sure many others have the same opinion, but my guess is they have better things to do than hang on the cow town forum and whip tired old cliches to death.
With all due respect, rather large and influential areas like Eden Prairie, Bloomington, Minnetonka, etc. are all 2nd ring suburbs, Wayzata, Lakeville and Burnsville are all 3rd ring suburbs, etc., and I don't think there's any doubt at all that those are true suburbs and not rural communities.
The Twin Cities metro doesn't stop at the 494/694 loop.
There are a few different definitions out there. Urban area, Combined Statistical Areas, and Metropolitain Statistical Areas. You could also look at individual core cities, but this is less useful as some cities have a large core with suburbs and others have smaller core citie(s) with suburbs.
Basicallly MSA areas are larger and designed by Office of Budget and Management. This will say Minneapolis vs. Chicago is about 3.2 Million vs. 9.5 Million or about 1/3
If you use the urban area definitions, it is 2.4 Million vs. 8.5 Million or .28%
Land covered for MSA is 6364 for Minneapolis vs. 8489 vs Chicago. THis measure would say Metro MN is about 75% the of the Chicago MSA in terms of area.
Rochester is not included in either of these, St. Cloud is included in the MSA. Since we are comparing same to same for both metos, this should help.
I agree with your original statement. It is pretty clear that Chicago is much larger in population and more dense. Metro MN is less dense and covers a pretty good area. To say that Chicago is big in terms of area, but not that big seems fairly accurate if you look at the facts objectively.
Chicago MSA does inclued part of Wisconsin and Indiana. Minneapolis MSA contains part of Wisconsin.
I personally haven't found cost of living to be more expensive in Chicago. Now I'm only 26, no kids, no major responsibilities, but I think cost of living is relative to the lifestyle.
Example: I live downtown Chicago. I take the CTA train/bus and sometimes cabs to wherever I have to go. I walk a lot of places as well. Just about everything I need is located within walking distance of me. For someone as young as I am, the starting salaries for a lot of entry-level business positions are significantly higher here in Chicago than what I found when I was applying for similar positions in Minneapolis/MN. Anywhere from 5-10k difference in yearly salary.
Also, if I were to be living in Minneapolis or MN, I would need to have a vehicle for day to day operations (going to work, shopping, doing anything). Where as Chicago, I haven't owned a car in 3 years and been fully functional. If I were to own a vehicle, I'd be paying probably close to $2000 a year in insurance, not to mention car payments, repairs, speeding tickets, and gas, and even a parking spot at $100-200 a month. If you add all those up, you're looking at potentially 4-5k a year in car costs. Instead, I pay $75 a month for CTA train and bus service unlimited usage. I pay at most $12 a cab ride if I need to use one.
Maybe prices for commodities and rent are a little higher, but not that much higher really. Rent in Chicago can be manipulated/negotiated pretty well if you can talk to the landlord or are able to get more roommates.
Clifford, you're known for assuming the negative in people's posts. Read about, this isn't a generalization, this is my opinion and an example of how cost of living is cheaper for a person in my position. Seriously, get a life. Obviously some people think my posts are informative or meaningful as I get positive reputation comments daily.
I don't have anything against Minnesota, I actually wish I could find a job there to be close to my family, but hey, Clifford doesn't read minds poeple, no no, he TELLS you how you feel and what you're thinking.
Why don't you just stick to offering up your OWN opinions and advice, and stop trying to 1 up or shoot down other people's posts? You and BarbaraMN only look for little tidbits of posts to cry murder about and then accuse people of being generalizing and pointless. Do you really think people are more concerned about your little fact tables and lists? No, they come to the forum to ask opinions and experiences, the same opinions you scruitinize constantly.
I'm going to continue to present my opinions and examples of my experiences as I've had them. What I won't do anymore is respond to your passive-aggressive garbage which is just a petty attempt to just instigate arguments. I suggest arguing with your wife or something. If you don't have a spouse to argue with, join the debate team.
Clifford, you're known for assuming the negative in people's posts. Read about, this isn't a generalization, this is my opinion and an example of how cost of living is cheaper for a person in my position. Seriously, get a life. Obviously some people think my posts are informative or meaningful as I get positive reputation comments daily.
I don't have anything against Minnesota, I actually wish I could find a job there to be close to my family, but hey, Clifford doesn't read minds poeple, no no, he TELLS you how you feel and what you're thinking.
Why don't you just stick to offering up your OWN opinions and advice, and stop trying to 1 up or shoot down other people's posts? You and BarbaraMN only look for little tidbits of posts to cry murder about and then accuse people of being generalizing and pointless. Do you really think people are more concerned about your little fact tables and lists? No, they come to the forum to ask opinions and experiences, the same opinions you scruitinize constantly.
I'm going to continue to present my opinions and examples of my experiences as I've had them. What I won't do anymore is respond to your passive-aggressive garbage which is just a petty attempt to just instigate arguments. I suggest arguing with your wife or something. If you don't have a spouse to argue with, join the debate team.
Good luck.
Obviously we have a great differnce in perspective. I probably went over the top a little and this was not called for.
I don't believe I put any words in your mouth or thoughts in your head though. I am just telling you straight up I think you are wrong about saying cost of living depends on your situation. Yes you can get a roomate to and do things to save money to compensate, and for some people it might be what they want to do. Cost of living is still higher in Chicago though. The things you mention are comprimises to make up for a higher cost of living though.
I am surprised to hear you say you are looking to move back. If that is what you want then I wish you luch finding a job.
There is truth in much of what you post, but it seems rather extreme to me in many cases. Maybe I am reading things the wrong way and assuming things you are posting are negative, but they certianly seem negative to me, and seem present MN and the people in less than flattering ways or try to minimize some of the good things we have. That does not mean I think MN and the people here are perfect or better than other places, or that critism in any way will not be tollerated.
Go ahead and post your oinions and experiances. That is what this is supposed to be be about. I see no point in dragging this out further either, so I will take a chill on responding to your posts in the future as well.
Chicago has a lot nice parks and it actually has the largest park district in the world. Lincoln Park Zoo is really nice, and free. Montrose park is very big, Grant park and Millenium park is right downtown with really nice museums and art centers, Hyde park is really nice as well.
And of course my favorite thing to do on Saturdays....THE BEACH on lake michigan. Lots of sailboats out there on the lake on a sunny day almost makes you think you're in florida some days.
I feel like some people who are doing comparisons of two areas haven't really been to one of the other locations.
I've spent a long time in both areas. Parks and scenery are pretty even-steven in my eyes.
No, Sir. I've lived in both places and you cannot outshine the parks, lakes and forest preserves right here in the Twin Cities. Hidden Falls is a park reserve within walking distance of my home right in the heart of Saint Paul - Highland Park neighborhood. This is what flabbergasted me when I saw the Twin Cities for the first time when I took a weekend here trip from Chicago (Hyde Park is where I was living in walking distance of the Museum of Science and Industry right on Lake Michigan, but it doesn't compare to what you can get in the Twin Cities. I also lived on the Near North Side).
Another thing: West Saint Paul - a suburb on the border of Saint Paul has spaces where people raise horses! It takes me 25 minutes to get to the rural area of River Falls, Wisconsin, and 40 minutes to get to the rural areas around Northfield. In Chicago you have to go through suburb after suburb after small town to get to any kind of countryside setting.
Location: Chi-Town soon to be NYC and eventually Ireland
291 posts, read 1,075,290 times
Reputation: 371
Having lived in both, I'll give my take on it. If I were in your position, I would probably choose the Twin Cities (but actually live *in* the Cities if I could afford it, not the suburbs, as I'm not a suburban type of gal).
I went to law school in Minneapolis, and although I was a little tired of it and ready to leave and come back to Chicago when I graduated, there are times when I truly do miss it. Life, as described above by other posters, is much, much easier, provided you have a car. (I'm sorry, I just don't think living carless in MSP with kids is realistic). The parks are beautiful, clean and easy to access, the pace is much, much slower, and there seems to be a little more respect for the fact that people have responsibilities outside of work- even at the law firm I worked at (granted, it was a smaller one) it wasn't unusual for attorneys to leave early in the day for family obligations, and no one thought anything about it. The work culture is much, much different there in a positive way.
Another factor is commute time. In Chicago, my partner and I lived on the northside (Andersonville) and worked in the Loop. Whether we drove or took the train, we had to add an hour each way door to door. And that was living IN the city. If you're in the burbs, you're looking at a long and frustrating commute time. That kind of thing really wears you down and you lose so much of your day where you could be doing other things.
On the weekends, you'll find significantly better outdoor options right outside (and inside!) Minneapolis. On the weekends, we would often grab sandwiches and go hiking, or rent a pontoon and spend the day in the sun. Chicago has a wonderful park system, but they're really just that-parks. You won't find the plethora of (wholesome) outdoor activities in Chicago, and we have our share of thugs and disrespectful folks that make a lot of the parks less than ideal for a nice family outing.
Of course Chicago has superior restaurants and cultural activities, there's no question. But Minneapolis has it's fair share of both. And for someone raising a family, you need to ask yourself how often you'll really take advantage of those things. If it's a couple of times a month, then Minneapolis will more than meet your needs. In Chicago, you really do pay SUCH a premium for the proximity of world-class dining and cultural opportunities, in the form of money and annoyance factors, that unless you really, really have the time and money to take advantage of them, equals more downside than upside.
I can say with certainty that if I had kids, there's no way in the world that I would put them in CPS. Nope. Someone with better insight into both school systems would have to compare that to MSP public schools, but I have a feeling they're not nearly as bad.
Now if I was absolutely loaded, and money was no object at all, I would probably vote for Chicago. Buy a lovely single-family house in Lincoln Park or the Gold Coast, put my kids in the very best private schools, enroll them in tons of arts activities, spend the weekends on the boat on Lake Michigan or tromping through the numerous museums and theatres, and take off a few times a year to get my fill of nature. But really, who lives like that? 2% of the population?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
