Land Surveying Horror (Minneapolis: flat fee, to rent, how much)

[qwertybob]

I saw people asking questions about land-surveying so I thought I'd post this VERY abbreviated true story (we're living it) to get anyone's opinions. Thank you for reading this.:
The full story documentation fills more than 4 banker boxes and we've tried very hard and have gotten the main points down to 4 pages single-space typed. I'll try to high-light some of it:
1 - Our property is less than 1/4 acre in the western suburbs of Minneapolis. It includes one house, one garage. The boundary is pie-shaped but regular. It is on a small lake not connected to any larger lake.
2 - 11 years ago we (my wife and I) decided to put a fence along the perimeter. SURVEYOR #1 surveyed for $300. We removed some old, mis-matched cinder blocks of NEIGHBOR #1 that were on our property and started to put up the fence.
3 - SURVEYOR #1 was wrong and NEIGHBOR #1 sued us. Our LAWYER #1 didn't respond and didn't do what we hired him to do (he kept saying "it might not work") we fired him. We hired LAWYER #2 who hired SURVEYOR #2. SURVEYOR #2 said SURVEYOR #1 had to fix the survey because it was his survey. He did and told us he gave NEIGHBOR #1 "...an extra 1/2 inch just to be safe." Our lot is about 300 feet long; that meant he gave away about 75 square feet of our property. SURVEYOR #2 surveyed 16 lots on our side of the street locating all the property irons and 6 front lots on the other side of the street locating the irons. He agreed with the survey of SURVEYOR #1 (even though we knew it was off). We have a copy of the survey and he told us that we can't show it to anyone because there is a one foot error that was recorded a very long time ago and it would case problems with everybody. (At two seperate times, NEIGHBOR #1 hired SURVEYOR #3 and then SURVEYOR #4 to also agree on SURVEYOR #1's survey line.)
4 - A settlement agreement was made and the property line was agreed upon by both parties and we never had to remove our fence again (after we removed it for a few days for NEIGHBOR #1 to put in a new retaining wall). The agreement is binding and for both parties, their successors and assigns. NEIGHBOR #1 didn't finish the retaining wall. LAWYER #2 said we couldn't afford him and gave us a 'Pro Se' letter to 'threathen' NEIGHBOR #1 with. He wasn't threatened and moved. SURVEYOR #2 was supposed to (after the retaining wall was completed) do a finally inspection survey and record it with the county. He didn't. Our totals costs in excess of many tens of thousands of dollars each for lawyer and surveyor.
5- NEIGHBOR #2 moved in and we told her about the lawsuit and all. After 3 years she decided to redo the retaining wall.We sent her a certified letter saying: "Don't build up to our fence (it is entirely on our property), stay on your own property. She didn't. She built so far into the fence that she bent the fence over. Neither local City officials, police or County or State officials would do anything. They said it was a civil matter (even though it was against the law and against City and State code.
6- We hired LAWYER #2 because he knew the case. He hired SURVEYOR #2 even though I could prove that the new timber 'retaining' wall was encroaching on our property. He researched the case (and billed us for it.) We only wanted her to remove the encroachment and pay for fence damage. A simple letter and copy of the 1999 settlement should have done it. He didn't do that. He sent a threatening letter giving her 30 days or else but, I guess or else meant "take longer". SURVEYOR #2 had us sign an agreement that he would do the simple discovery survey at a flat fee of $300 and any other work would have to be agreed to in writing. After the survey, he say he needed another $138. Many surveys and revisions were done with nothing in writing (at least that we've seen).
7- LAWYER #2 said we needed a Torrens to protect our property and it would "kill 2 birds with one stone because the County would force her to remove all encroachments (later this became the County would acknowledge all encroachments). We didn't want run-away bills so we asked how much it would cost. He said $2000 then called SURVEYOR #2 who said $3000 so LAWYER #2 said his would also be $3000 and take 6 months.
8- To make a long story short (I've already left out a lot), we've been on this new case for more than 4 years; LAWYER #2 has gotten over $10,000 and wants more, SURVEYOR #2 has gotten over $11,000 and wants over $9000 more. LAWYER #2 has been fired once by us during this because of unacceptable delays (the first being nearly of year of having 'forgotten about it'). SURVEYOR #2 has done more than ten surveys or revisions on this property, he forgot to put in 'section-corners' on the Torrens survey (even though his brouchure said it's one of the things he did but he had to rent the equipment), didn't include key features (that had been part of the earlier lawsuit and had come up during this one), did not put our names and address on one of the surveys, put the wrong address on one document (putting us in the wrong County for a Torrens survey), did not include encroachments and easements, placed key elements in the wrong place (the County surveyor asked how a wall could be where it was drawn because it would be covering up a critical drainage swale constructed by the City and not on the survey). He had to find mistakes and force him to correct them, even fight with him and the attorney to include the drainage swale. NEIGHBOR #2 hired SURVEYOR #5 and then, a year later, SURVEYOR #4 to also agree on SURVEYOR #1's survey line. She also wanted to hire SURVEYOR #2.
9- When the judicial landmarks were to be put in. SURVEYOR #2 charged us for calling Menard's to order the rebar (a stock item) and charged us about $200 to go the Menard's and have the 5/8" rebar cut into four 3-foot long sections and carry it out to his car and for gasoline and oil for a gas drill that he didn't need. He also charged up about $800 for a gas drill (which he had talked to us about renting at $30 and we assured him there was electricity so he wouldn't need it.
10- Meanwhile we went 'Pro Se' against NEIGHBOR #2 and forced her to remove the timber 'retaining' wall. Neither Lawyer #2 nor Surveyor #2 were happy for us (it was all we wanted and all they were hired to do). In fact, they wanted us to lie about it in court and act like it was still there.

Any comments? Does this look as bad as we think it does? (There is a lot more).

[marmac]

Were those licensed surveyors you hired?

#9 causes me to doubt it.

I have had surveying done twice in rural Minnesoa by 2 different licensd survey companies, and it sure wasn't cheap but I never witnessed behavior exhibited in #9.

My son also worked for a survey company in both the metro and outstate ( light rail construction, 494, and residental rural land)

[qwertybob]

Marmac-
Thank you for replying. It was #9 that woke us up to the fact that something wasn't right.

He is a licensed surveyor. He is president of the family owned business and has worked there for at least 30 years and he was past president of the Minnesota Surveyors Association.

When his workers got to our place to install the judicial landmarks, they couldn't put the cap on the rebar so they tried grinding the rebar down to make it narrower. I said I could just run to the hardware store to get a different size but they said, "no". Then they called the surveyor from our yard and charged us more than $200 to talk him about the caps not fitting.

It's surreal

[marmac]

I have never hired a surveyor who would say--------I gave the neighbor an extra half inch just to be safe "

With the equipmenmt and technology that licensed surveyors have available today,---" just to be safe"--is not a term that should be used or accepted.

[marmac]

I , also, could post horror stories from rural Minnesota.

It is where a new survey is done, paid for,$$$$$$$ but the other owner refuses to accept the new property line and sues the landowner that took possession of " his land"

It ends up in court, judges appear to not want to offend either party or open a " can of worms" with a new property line.

The end result is a lot of money $$$$$$$$ spent on legal fees and the judge asking for a " compromise"

After all that money spent on surveying , and the judge looks for a " compromise", thus that surveying was meaningless.

I completely understand the predicament you are in.

I blame it on judges who are shy about enforcing property lines and that ridiculous law that if you posess land for a certain period of time,it is yours regardless if a survey shows otherwise.

[Thewareyou]

Hey Bob, I am about to have a survey done. Any chance you could let me know the name of the original surveyor that screwed up? If not, I understand. Were you satisfied with any of the surveyors you encountered and or would you reccommend one?

Thanks,

Originally Posted by qwertybob

I saw people asking questions about land-surveying so I thought I'd post this VERY abbreviated true story (we're living it) to get anyone's opinions. Thank you for reading this.:
The full story documentation fills more than 4 banker boxes and we've tried very hard and have gotten the main points down to 4 pages single-space typed. I'll try to high-light some of it:
1 - Our property is less than 1/4 acre in the western suburbs of Minneapolis. It includes one house, one garage. The boundary is pie-shaped but regular. It is on a small lake not connected to any larger lake.
2 - 11 years ago we (my wife and I) decided to put a fence along the perimeter. SURVEYOR #1 surveyed for $300. We removed some old, mis-matched cinder blocks of NEIGHBOR #1 that were on our property and started to put up the fence.
3 - SURVEYOR #1 was wrong and NEIGHBOR #1 sued us. Our LAWYER #1 didn't respond and didn't do what we hired him to do (he kept saying "it might not work") we fired him. We hired LAWYER #2 who hired SURVEYOR #2. SURVEYOR #2 said SURVEYOR #1 had to fix the survey because it was his survey. He did and told us he gave NEIGHBOR #1 "...an extra 1/2 inch just to be safe." Our lot is about 300 feet long; that meant he gave away about 75 square feet of our property. SURVEYOR #2 surveyed 16 lots on our side of the street locating all the property irons and 6 front lots on the other side of the street locating the irons. He agreed with the survey of SURVEYOR #1 (even though we knew it was off). We have a copy of the survey and he told us that we can't show it to anyone because there is a one foot error that was recorded a very long time ago and it would case problems with everybody. (At two seperate times, NEIGHBOR #1 hired SURVEYOR #3 and then SURVEYOR #4 to also agree on SURVEYOR #1's survey line.)
4 - A settlement agreement was made and the property line was agreed upon by both parties and we never had to remove our fence again (after we removed it for a few days for NEIGHBOR #1 to put in a new retaining wall). The agreement is binding and for both parties, their successors and assigns. NEIGHBOR #1 didn't finish the retaining wall. LAWYER #2 said we couldn't afford him and gave us a 'Pro Se' letter to 'threathen' NEIGHBOR #1 with. He wasn't threatened and moved. SURVEYOR #2 was supposed to (after the retaining wall was completed) do a finally inspection survey and record it with the county. He didn't. Our totals costs in excess of many tens of thousands of dollars each for lawyer and surveyor.
5- NEIGHBOR #2 moved in and we told her about the lawsuit and all. After 3 years she decided to redo the retaining wall.We sent her a certified letter saying: "Don't build up to our fence (it is entirely on our property), stay on your own property. She didn't. She built so far into the fence that she bent the fence over. Neither local City officials, police or County or State officials would do anything. They said it was a civil matter (even though it was against the law and against City and State code.
6- We hired LAWYER #2 because he knew the case. He hired SURVEYOR #2 even though I could prove that the new timber 'retaining' wall was encroaching on our property. He researched the case (and billed us for it.) We only wanted her to remove the encroachment and pay for fence damage. A simple letter and copy of the 1999 settlement should have done it. He didn't do that. He sent a threatening letter giving her 30 days or else but, I guess or else meant "take longer". SURVEYOR #2 had us sign an agreement that he would do the simple discovery survey at a flat fee of $300 and any other work would have to be agreed to in writing. After the survey, he say he needed another $138. Many surveys and revisions were done with nothing in writing (at least that we've seen).
7- LAWYER #2 said we needed a Torrens to protect our property and it would "kill 2 birds with one stone because the County would force her to remove all encroachments (later this became the County would acknowledge all encroachments). We didn't want run-away bills so we asked how much it would cost. He said $2000 then called SURVEYOR #2 who said $3000 so LAWYER #2 said his would also be $3000 and take 6 months.
8- To make a long story short (I've already left out a lot), we've been on this new case for more than 4 years; LAWYER #2 has gotten over $10,000 and wants more, SURVEYOR #2 has gotten over $11,000 and wants over $9000 more. LAWYER #2 has been fired once by us during this because of unacceptable delays (the first being nearly of year of having 'forgotten about it'). SURVEYOR #2 has done more than ten surveys or revisions on this property, he forgot to put in 'section-corners' on the Torrens survey (even though his brouchure said it's one of the things he did but he had to rent the equipment), didn't include key features (that had been part of the earlier lawsuit and had come up during this one), did not put our names and address on one of the surveys, put the wrong address on one document (putting us in the wrong County for a Torrens survey), did not include encroachments and easements, placed key elements in the wrong place (the County surveyor asked how a wall could be where it was drawn because it would be covering up a critical drainage swale constructed by the City and not on the survey). He had to find mistakes and force him to correct them, even fight with him and the attorney to include the drainage swale. NEIGHBOR #2 hired SURVEYOR #5 and then, a year later, SURVEYOR #4 to also agree on SURVEYOR #1's survey line. She also wanted to hire SURVEYOR #2.
9- When the judicial landmarks were to be put in. SURVEYOR #2 charged us for calling Menard's to order the rebar (a stock item) and charged us about $200 to go the Menard's and have the 5/8" rebar cut into four 3-foot long sections and carry it out to his car and for gasoline and oil for a gas drill that he didn't need. He also charged up about $800 for a gas drill (which he had talked to us about renting at $30 and we assured him there was electricity so he wouldn't need it.
10- Meanwhile we went 'Pro Se' against NEIGHBOR #2 and forced her to remove the timber 'retaining' wall. Neither Lawyer #2 nor Surveyor #2 were happy for us (it was all we wanted and all they were hired to do). In fact, they wanted us to lie about it in court and act like it was still there.

Any comments? Does this look as bad as we think it does? (There is a lot more).

[angelsweb]

Have you filed complaints with the licensing agencies for the surveyors?

Here's a link to the brochure on how to file a complaint --

http://mn.gov/aelslag/Complaint_Brochure.pdf

[golfgal]

Bob hasn't been around for about 5 years now...