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Old 09-13-2009, 07:36 PM
 
207 posts, read 795,121 times
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How likely is it that they're going to construct an LRT that interferes with the greenway? Is this something that could happen in the distant future or is it imminent? Is there any chance that the alternative model of having a streetcar run there might work out? The Greenway is such a cool feature of this city. I don't know how many other cities have this, but to me it seems unique and progressive. To get rid of it or interfere with it seems like a mistake. But that's just my newbie/naive opinion. I'm sure this is a contentious topic.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:01 PM
 
Location: MPLS - Camden - Cleveland
32 posts, read 98,156 times
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Isabel,
I am guessing you are talking about the SW line from downtown MPLS to Eden Prairie. The preffered option they are looking at is going to put the line on the greenway at the west end. The line will run between Lake of the Isles and Cedar Lake (along the Kenilworth Trail), and run by NW of Lake Calhoun. There were only two viable options for the line. The 2nd option was to run it down Nicollet Ave S to 28th ST S where it would turn west. This one could end up in the Western portion of the Midtown greenway.
There are a few main reasons for the Kenilworth Trail option being preferred. The first is cost, it is easily $200 million cheaper than the 2nd option. Secondly, there is some neighborhood opposition to the 2nd option (anything built out here seems to have neighborhood opposition). The third reason for the preferred option is that the line is faster time wise (but some point out bypasses most of the populated area in Minneapolis to save ride time).
Pretty much, if either option is used, there is going to be trails and greenways lost, almost the same amount either way actually. It is just a matter of where they are lost. The use of the trails or greenway keep the cost within the Federal cost guidelines. If we go over the cost guidelines, we can not even apply for federal transit funds for the line.

Just to let you know, the plan on LRT for MSP is:
2010-2014 - Build Central Corridor between the downtowns (We will know if Feds will provide funds in Oct)
Start 2014 or 2015 - Start Southwest Line between downtown MPLS to Eden Prairie
Late 2010s -Start Bottineau Line from Downtown MPLS thru North MPLS to either Brooklyn Park (@ Hwy 610) or Maple Grove (was originally going to be BRT but the plan is now for LRT)
This is all dependent on funds being available. Met Council has said if one line does not get federal funding, the line after it becomes the priority.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:43 PM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,636,587 times
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This is a pretty controversial topic. I myself am completely behind the Uptown (3C) line - that's the one that goes through Uptown and Lyn-Lake. Uptown is a regional destination (as well as has high density and a lot of transit-riders, both current and potential), and I think it would be a mistake to skip the opportunity to link Uptown to both downtown and suburbs with light rail. (there's been some talk about a streetcar, but for various reasons I don't support that idea, at least not at the expense of LRT, and possibly not ever).

The big issue, though, is money. Federal funding is based on expected ridership numbers, and while I won't go off on a rant about the current numbers, they seem really, really off. They seem to be based on a traditional commuter-only, from home to downtown, model, and don't reflect the various ways in which people actually use light rail, especially in areas like Uptown (which is also a job center in its own right, not to mention an entertainment and commercial district, as well as a densely populated residential area). I believe the current numbers project only 1,100 boardings daily at the Uptown station, for example. Trouble is, if the numbers are there, even if wildly off, federal funding is out of the question.

Greenway supporters are split on this, too, by the way. The official Midtown Greenway Coalition opposes the Uptown route, but I know many members (and board members) who actively support 3C.

And not to go too off-topic, but speaking of the Greenway, my personal vision is to forget about the native grasses so favored by the Greenway supporters; it's already artificial, so let's put it to some additional use by lining as much of it as possible with urban agriculture. Produce, fruit trees, maybe some larger lots could be rented out to urban farmers and allowed to keep chickens or goats, rent out community garden plots (why restrict those only to certain community gardens dotted along the Greenway, as it is now?) the result would be increased local food, increased access to fresh produce for those who lack garden space of their own, more eyes on the Greenway (some areas of the Greenway are a little remote and scary at times), etc. Anyway, that's my unique vision for the Greenway, although admittedly highly unlikely to ever happen.

I love the Greenway and its possibilities, but think that LRT through Uptown serves more people, is better for the environment, and can be done in a way that won't harm the overall benefits that come with the Greenway.
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Old 09-13-2009, 11:43 PM
 
207 posts, read 795,121 times
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This is very interesting, and obviously much more complex than I could have imagined. Thanks for the replies. For now I have one follow up question about safety on the greenway...is it an issue? I saw a police bulletin on the Midtown Greenway Coalition website. What areas are more sketchy? Are we talking any time of day or just at night?
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:23 AM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,636,587 times
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I'm not sure where the cutoff is for where things start to get sketchy (not in the Uptown area; I think mostly east of the freeway), but yes, there are some areas that I would avoid at night. Last fall, and then to a lesser extent this spring and summer there have been some muggings and attempted muggings, and some of my brother's coworkers have had large rocks and things thrown at them from bridges. It can be somewhat isolated in parts, even in the daytime. I think it's mostly an issue if you're alone after dark, though.
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Old 09-14-2009, 01:26 AM
 
Location: MPLS - Camden - Cleveland
32 posts, read 98,156 times
Reputation: 26
Hey Uptown, I should probably clarify my post above. On the reason for the preferred route, I just repeated what I heard from my friends who work at Met Council (they seem to be divided on which route to take too). Specifically, on point #2... I wan't pointing out opposition in Lyn-Lake or Uptown, I meant anything built anywhere in the Twin Cities brings out neighborhood opposition in the area of discussion. That is probably the weirdest thing I have noticed out here.
There is already grumbling and praising from some people up here in North about the line options for the Bottineau (NW) Line. Worst part about it, the open house meetings haven't even started yet (I think the first one is on the 30th).
I do agree that on the SW line, the number projections on option 3C seem off by a good amount. When I saw 1,100 for the Uptown station, I almost laughed. That has to be the ultra low estimate.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
10,244 posts, read 16,288,264 times
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I read a recent newspaper article that they voted on the various proposals and decided on the route that doesn't go through Uptown. Are you saying there's still a chance that they could select that route. I hope this is the case, the Uptown route makes so much more sense.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:41 AM
 
1,263 posts, read 3,996,816 times
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If the LRT goes through uptown without messing with traffic (e.g., underground or elevated, which I don't think will ever happen because of funding issues even if it is included in the plan), I will support that option. Otherwise I will support streetcar for that path and LRT aligned with freeways. LRT running through uptown messing with traffic is a complete waste of money over streetcar and will make the already overwhelming traffic there much worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
This is a pretty controversial topic. I myself am completely behind the Uptown (3C) line - that's the one that goes through Uptown and Lyn-Lake. Uptown is a regional destination (as well as has high density and a lot of transit-riders, both current and potential), and I think it would be a mistake to skip the opportunity to link Uptown to both downtown and suburbs with light rail. (there's been some talk about a streetcar, but for various reasons I don't support that idea, at least not at the expense of LRT, and possibly not ever).

The big issue, though, is money. Federal funding is based on expected ridership numbers, and while I won't go off on a rant about the current numbers, they seem really, really off. They seem to be based on a traditional commuter-only, from home to downtown, model, and don't reflect the various ways in which people actually use light rail, especially in areas like Uptown (which is also a job center in its own right, not to mention an entertainment and commercial district, as well as a densely populated residential area). I believe the current numbers project only 1,100 boardings daily at the Uptown station, for example. Trouble is, if the numbers are there, even if wildly off, federal funding is out of the question.

Greenway supporters are split on this, too, by the way. The official Midtown Greenway Coalition opposes the Uptown route, but I know many members (and board members) who actively support 3C.

And not to go too off-topic, but speaking of the Greenway, my personal vision is to forget about the native grasses so favored by the Greenway supporters; it's already artificial, so let's put it to some additional use by lining as much of it as possible with urban agriculture. Produce, fruit trees, maybe some larger lots could be rented out to urban farmers and allowed to keep chickens or goats, rent out community garden plots (why restrict those only to certain community gardens dotted along the Greenway, as it is now?) the result would be increased local food, increased access to fresh produce for those who lack garden space of their own, more eyes on the Greenway (some areas of the Greenway are a little remote and scary at times), etc. Anyway, that's my unique vision for the Greenway, although admittedly highly unlikely to ever happen.

I love the Greenway and its possibilities, but think that LRT through Uptown serves more people, is better for the environment, and can be done in a way that won't harm the overall benefits that come with the Greenway.
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:24 AM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,636,587 times
Reputation: 6776
Thanks to the Greenway LRT through Uptown wouldn't interrupt traffic (it would be running in the trench originally built for freight trains, so all that infrastructure -- bridges, etc. -- has been in place for decades) and, ideally, would actually alleviate some of the existing and future traffic pressures. Construction on the part through Whittier (on the part on/near Eat Street) would cause some temporary traffic jams and construction hassles for the neighborhood and businesses. Admittedly it would be rough for some of the small businesses in that neighborhood to survive the construction period (although not impossible) although once construction was done they'd be in a very good position. For both Whittier and Uptown, though, the result would be less car traffic, not more.

Slig, the route isn't a done deal yet, although there have been some official recommendations and endorsements made. I'm by no means an expert in any of this, but from what I've heard from some of my more LRT activists friends and family is that the Star Tribune article really jumped the gun. There was another opinion piece a couple of weeks ago, also in the Star Tribune, pointing out the problem with making early conclusions based on what seem like obviously flawed ridership numbers. It's probably unlikely that 3C is going to happen though, since the numbers, flawed or not, are going to impact the funding possibilities, and it's going to take an enormous amount of political might to force a closer look at the data. (not sure of where things stand on that front. I get the impression that beyond the Minneapolis politicians, others seem more focused on getting a light rail, any light rail, built right now, and are content to go with the easier route.

Oh, and MPLSCleveland, I know what you mean about grumbling neighborhood opposition; I'm all for discussion and community involvment, but some locals seem to embrace the "discuss until it goes away" technique to delay any decisions. One thing I've noticed about Minneapolis compared to other cities is that neighborhood groups have so much more power here, I assume mostly due to NRP [Neighborhood Revitalization Program] funding. In Uptown, certainly, neighborhood groups tend to assume that they should get final say on any project impacting either the immediate official neighborhood boundaries, or even just nearby. It's both a good and a bad thing (I like the idea that people do have some say in what happens in their own backyards!), but the boards in Uptown, anyway, don't reflect the demographics of the neighborhood, and tend to be dominated by those with special interests. Those special interests tend to be the NIMBYs (although not necessarily when it comes to LRT). I'll be curious to see how the Bottineau line plays out. I don't know enough about that line to comment one way or the other, but I can only assume that it would be a good thing for both residents and businesses of North Minneapolis.
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:51 AM
 
Location: MPLS - Camden - Cleveland
32 posts, read 98,156 times
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Hey Uptown, here is what I know about the Bottineau line. I hope some ridership numbers become available soon.
The Bottineau Line has two different set of route options... On the nor end of of the route, the line will either end in northern Brooklyn Park or eastern Maple Grove 2 options, rather have the Brooklyn route but either would be good).
Now, running the line through North Minneapolis is interesting. There are 4 line options for the route. I am actually unhappy that they took my preferred alignment out of the discussion (It would have literally ran in front of my house).
The 4 alignment options:
D1 - Use BNSF railroad ROW just west of Minneapolis from Robbinsdale to Hwy 55. Hwy 55 straight into downtown (aka, avoid North Minneapolis route). This line is the one a number of people seem to be upset about, since it avoids North all together. We can use all the transit possible up here.
D2- County 278 (Industrial Ave) in Robbinsdale (turns into Broadway once it enters MPLS), Broadway to Penn Ave, Penn Ave to Hwy 55. 55 to downtown.
D3 - County 278 (Industrial Ave) to Lowry Ave, Lowry to Lyndale Ave, Lyndale Ave South to downtown
D4 - County 278/Broadway Ave to Lyndale Ave, Lyndale to Downtown.
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