Give us 10 reasons NOT to move to the Minneapolis/St.Paul metro (St. Paul: best school, quality of life)

[Voyageur]

Originally Posted by ColdRedRain

So how do you expect to truck and ship in goods on a bike path, through one of those rickshaw type bikes? The goods and services that are delivered by a highway system more than pay for the interstate system. You simply can't ship things via bicycle like you can through trucks.

How you came to the conclusion that I think we should have bike paths instead of freeways is beyond me.

I merely pointed out, in response to your assertion that freeways provide more benefit that bike paths, that given the comparative costs of the two that it is expected that freeways should indeed provide more (far more) benefit).

[intmd8r]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Taxes in MN aren't all that different from GA. I think you're confusing MN with the East Coast. Seriously. Compare MN property and sales taxes to NY, NJ, and other similar places. MN ends up being a cheap place to live in comparison.

Yes, there are definitely higher taxes in NY and NJ. That being said, Minnesota is at the top end of the list for tax burden on its residents in the country.

Someone on the Austin boards was posting a link to show that Texas was 41st or 43rd or something and I looked up Minnesota. It showed us as 12th highest overall. That's pretty high.

I couldn't find that exact link, but I did find this one: The Tax Foundation - Tax Research Areas > Minnesota

That shows each tax broken down, not overall tax burden, but you still get the idea that taxes are higher here than most of the country.

Edit: Here's the link that shows overall burden: The Tax Foundation - Minnesota's State and Local Tax Burden, 1977-2008

12th highest as of 2008.

[ColdRedRain]

I merely pointed out, in response to your assertion that freeways provide more benefit that bike paths, that given the comparative costs of the two that it is expected that freeways should indeed provide more (far more) benefit).

I may need to get my eyes checked again. D'oh!

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by intmd8r

I couldn't find that exact link, but I did find this one: The Tax Foundation - Tax Research Areas > Minnesota

That shows each tax broken down, not overall tax burden, but you still get the idea that taxes are higher here than most of the country.

Edit: Here's the link that shows overall burden: The Tax Foundation - Minnesota's State and Local Tax Burden, 1977-2008

12th highest as of 2008.

Georgia is 16th highest, and in my opinion you see a LOT more benefit for your money in MN.

Georgia isn't a bad place to live at all, at least in the Atlanta metro, but I would *HATE* to be unemployed here.

The Tax Foundation - Tax Research Areas > Georgia

[intmd8r]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Georgia is 16th highest, and in my opinion you see a LOT more benefit for your money in MN.

Georgia isn't a bad place to live at all, at least in the Atlanta metro, but I would *HATE* to be unemployed here.

The Tax Foundation - Tax Research Areas > Georgia

I really don't know anything about Georgia (other than I really like the architecture for homes there, based on HGTV ), so I really can't compare those two.

Now, I can compare AZ to MN. AZ is close to the bottom; I think they're like 41st or something. The state is falling apart and the schools suck. So yes, you get a lot more for your money here, as far as that goes.

However, Texas is like 43rd or so and they have excellent schools (at least in the Austin area where we're moving) and the city is very similar to Mpls (at least as far as vibe goes). Also, their streets are not in terrible condition (but they also have climate on their side). They have an extremely outdoor activity lifestyle with TONS of events and you can enjoy it year-round, unlike here. It's also extremely family friendly, much like here. However, their freeway system SUCKS and they have some of the worst traffic in the country on I-35. Commuting there would be a nightmare!!!

Minnesota may have more benefit for your money, but is it really 43rd to 12th better? I SERIOUSLY doubt it...

[krypton727]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Taxes in MN aren't all that different from GA. I think you're confusing MN with the East Coast. Seriously. Compare MN property and sales taxes to NY, NJ, and other similar places. MN ends up being a cheap place to live in comparison.

I'm not confusing anything. Look at he previous post I made with the link attached. Minnesota is 12th highest taxed state in the country.
The only thing I'm confused about is why people in Minnesota want to tax even more...

[City Data Guy]

Originally Posted by knke0204

10. Traffic. - Twin Cities are consitently in the top 15-17 in metro areas in terms of traffic congestion. The sad thing is that nothing is really being done. (LRT has little to nothing to ease traffic at a significant level that actually increases commute times and livability)

9. Homogenous. - Diversity in the Twin Cities is apparent as bounced check in Mr. Trump's checkbook. People will say "There is a large hmong and somali population" but in terms of the aggregate, they rank well below other places. There are still many people within the 3.5 million metro that are unwilling to accept changes and different cultures.

8. Infrastructure- Bridges and roads are deterriorating, and the State is broke. Major improvement projects seem few and far. The weather doesnt help- road construction is only really feasible from april - october

7. Proximation- The Twin Cities are quite isolated, as Chicago is the closest Major city and by car it is nearly 7 hrs away. Milwaukee is about the same distance. Consider the East coast where one can drive from Boston through Providence, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore and DC in that same time.

6. Motonous SUburbs (Sprawl)- The same can be said for almost any metro in the US though. But being a midwest metro, the suburbs are quite new. MPLS-STP doesnt have turn of the century suburbs. (1900s). You tell me the difference between Blaine, Apple Valley, Eden Prairie, Woodbury? nothing except they are all are on opposite sides of the metro.

5. Taxes- State taxes, municipal taxes, property taxes, etc..they all are pretty high-BUT, you get what you pay for- MN has great police protection and schools... that's mostly offset by the crumbling infrastructure.

4. Nightlife - For a metro and 2 cities of their sizes, TC has a subpar nightlife. I don't understand it. I think with harsh DWI enforcement and horrid public transportation, most of the people (suburb dwellers) stick to their suburbs or nearby for socializing, and not venturing into the city.

3. Topography - I'm a believer in that topography makes a great city. A city with terrain makes it unique, beautiful, and just darn fun. Chicago is flat, but I think the lakefront makes up for it. LA tends to be flat, but has its 'hills' and mountains nearby. San Fran has hills and is awesome. Same goes for Seattle. Throughout the entire metro, the land is mostly flat, with the exception of some rolling hills.

2. Passive-Agressive- People on this site will argue all day "Minnesota Nice?". Some say Minnesotans are mean, rude, and standoffish. Some say Minnesotans are very nice but you just have to open up. I say, that both is true in the way Minnesotans, and especially TCs act. People from MN tend to be passive-agressive. Many talk the talk but don't walk the walk. I always see things happen to people where they act polite, but later comment on how they would have done it, or should have said it. This is even worse in the Twin Cities. Many people in the metro have the attitude that they are the cream of the crop and since they dwell in a generic suburban development and their son is mediocre at hockey on the local bantam team, and just bought a new GMC Suburban, they are better than you.

1. You said it, Weather- Very cold from Dec. - Mar.... Snowy and cold from Mar-May....Summer from May(kinda)-Sept... Kinda nice from Sept-Nov....and Rain/snow/cold Nov-Dec...Failed to mention that from July-August the temp is sometimes unbearable, but duh, it is summer. Gets very muggy and thunderstorms a lot.

You act as if it's a bad thing that the metro area's population is predominately white. The world doesn't revolve around racial and ethnic diversity. If Minneapolis-St. Paul needs more non-whites, predominantly non-white areas like Atlanta, GA need more whites.

Also, where do people get the assumption that all whites are racist and intolerant of minorities? Just because the metro is mostly white, that doesn't mean people aren't willing to accept minorities. Can you prove that many people aren't willing to accept others? Can you prove that the some two million white Americans in this metro aren't accepting non-whites? I don't think you can read the minds of over two million people.

[krypton727]

Originally Posted by krypton727

You personally benefit from the school system here (Although it's severely flawed, I'll get back to that later). If you're running a business or you're doing business in the TC area, you'd like to do business with a better educated worker than with a less educated person. However, nobody except a few cyclists in Bloomington and Eagan benefit from that proposed bike trail. Maintaining that bike trail takes more money than it pumps into a local economy, ergo, the best way to make all parties happy is to make that proposed trail a toll trail. That way, we get our bridge across the Minnesota River (Sorry, the Mendota death bridge doesn't count) and maitenence for the trail wouldn't be at risk for getting the axe or be responsible for raising our taxes.

I don't see how I benefit personally from paying for someone else's education...Isn't this the parent's responsibility? When did it become my responsibility to make sure everyone else gets a good job. If you want to use the argument that I benefit from an educated person directly, then you benefit from a person who is physically fit directly.
I guess it's O.K for everyone in Minnesota to benefit from my tax dollars to make up for their own lack of resposibility in their life.[/quote]

[intmd8r]

Originally Posted by krypton727

I don't see how I benefit personally from paying for someone else's education...Isn't this the parent's responsibility? When did it become my responsibility to make sure everyone else gets a good job. If you want to use the argument that I benefit from an educated person directly, then you benefit from a person who is physically fit directly.
I guess it's O.K for everyone in Minnesota to benefit from my tax dollars to make up for their own lack of resposibility in their life.

[/quote]
I don't think anyone is saying it's your responsibility; there's a big difference between responsibility for something and benefiting from something.

Take a city that has terrible schools. The citizens of that city will not be well-educated, if they even finish school. The community as a whole will generally have more crime, not as many high-paying jobs, real-estate doesn't hold its value as well because they aren't in a good school district that is desirable, etc.

I would much rather live in an area that has good schools even if I didn't have a child, as I would still definitely benefit.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by krypton727

I'm not confusing anything. Look at he previous post I made with the link attached. Minnesota is 12th highest taxed state in the country.
The only thing I'm confused about is why people in Minnesota want to tax even more...

And Georgia is the 16th highest. That puts it in roughly the same tier, wouldn't you say?

The thing is, you can actually see a difference (at least in my opinion) when it comes to certain things being better in MN than in GA.

MN has much better unemployment than GA, it has much better public education in general (the suburban schools in the Twin Cities are much more uniform in quality) and a much better general attitude towards education, the Twin Cities have twice as many Fortune 100 (6 versus 3) and almost twice as many Fortune 500 (18 versus 10) companies than Atlanta does even though the Atlanta metro is around 5.7 million, the Twin Cities seems to have some types of traffic systems in place (ramp meters, for better or worse, emergency vehicle signal overides, times lights, etc) that I've not seen in Atlanta, the Twin Cities aren't having an issue their police department being woefully undermanned, or issues with something as basic as drinking water.

Some of that is cultural differences. MN is heavily influenced by German and Scandanavian immigrants who had a more practical outlook, more socialist tendencies, and a less adversarial attitude towards government. But some of that comes from the fact that MN and the Twin Cities metro area actually has enough funds to provide quality basic services.

I grew up there, and I've lived down here now for five years. I think the state of Minnesota has an extremely good thing going, and I don't want to see it messed up by folks who are unwilling to pay for the continuation of what I believe is a very high quality of life.

Would you really rather live in Georgia? It's not a bad state, and folks here are fine, but there are some things you really don't miss until you move somewhere that doesn't have them. A core city with a reliable water system and enough officers to provide basic levels of coverage would be a nice start down here, but it isn't happening yet...