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They DO belong on the BIKE PATHS near us however and they don't use them.
I assume that some bikers do. Do they go to the same places as the roads? I don't know about your area, but people do tend to use the dedicated bike paths here in the city. It's safer and faster than dodging pedestrians or cars on space shared with either pedestrians or cars. In any case, I wouldn't give up on bike paths or lanes as worthless yet, as while they might not work out in Rosemount, they have had great success in other areas.
Location: An overgrown 350K person suburb of Saint Paul
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Golfgal, do you mean those recreational bike paths in the burbs? They don't get used because usually, those paths aren't designed for commuting. They were designed for recreational purposes, not transportation purposes. That's why you see those cyclists on the streets, and not on those paths.
KNHE: you truly did grow up in the suburbs of the west metro if you think only kids ride bikes. The rest of us who don't live in the hinterland ride bikes because it literally takes more time, money, effort and planning to start a car, roll it out of the driveway/garage, drive, then find a place to park than ride a bike in densely populated areas.
Case in point, if I wanted to make some groceries, buy a PS3 game, go grab a sandwich and then work out for about an hour right by my house, it would take me about 7 minutes to get to the Minnehaha shopping center by car, park my car and go grab the PS3 game at Target. Then when I want to make some groceries, I would have to walk across the parking lot to the Cub Foods or drive my car across to the Cub parking lot or drive my car to the Hi-Lake shopping center to go to Aldi (Another 2-5 minutes in traffic and parking), walk to the Subway, go grab some groceries at Cub or Aldi and then walk to the local YWCA. If I made that trip on my bike, it would take me around 10 minutes, minus shopping.
I also have to figure out other factors, such as wear and tear on my car, gasoline prices, etc. It's simply not worth it for me to own and upkeep a car when you live in such a densely populated area.
The reason why kids are often associated with bikes with many provincial people is because the burbs, unlike cities, are sparsely populated and are designed for car traffic, not foot and cycle traffic. The only places to walk in the burbs are across residential cul de sacs and residential side streets, i.e. nowhere that businesses really are located. Kids ride bikes on these side streets and rec trails because it gives them something to do before they explore the larger, real world in their area, which usually requires a car. You don't need to explore the "real world" with a car in the city because "the real world" is only about a 3 block walk from your house. In fact, it's kind of dangerous to do so, and you only hop on a bike when you're over a certain age.
BTW, something funny I've noticed about the 'burbs though. The cars in the 'burbs are expensive but the bikes are cheap. I mean like 40 dollar Xmart BMX cheap. You'd think if somebody can afford a Lexus, they could plop the extra 200 dollars on a Gary Fisher instead of putting themselves or their kids on a poorly built bike and risk injury.
The fact that everything is so close to me is the reason why I never really bothered to get my license. I'm only getting my license right now because the economy's in a major crunch and the only jobs that are out there are jobs in the way out sprawled suburbs of the TC. And even then, when I'm home from work, I'm still going to ride my bike to the grocery store and for small errands since everything is so close to me.
This should be above my other paragraphs, but since C&P doesn't work for me, this paragraph is stuck here. Cities depend on cycling and foot traffic. Smaller, older cities like MPLS&STP are designed for slow moving traffic and mass transit with cars as an afterthought. It's because a city needs slow moving traffic to showcase it's businesses. No businesses getting recognition=less customer awareness of businesses and walk-in business=less of a local economy=less jobs=stagnant areas. Most businesses in the city depend on walk in traffic to be profitable.
Part of the reason why parts of STP are dead as a doornail is because those parts don't cater to slow moving traffic. Foot traffic on Front and Dale is non-existent. A corner that's as busy as Front and Dale should be hopping with business. There's little foot traffic on what should be a hopping business district.
IMHO, I agree that taxpayer money should not go to bike paths that aren't frequently used for transportation, since they suck up more money than they generate. It doesn't make too much sense if I want to use a recreational snowmobile path, racing track or ATV track, I have to pay a user fee but yet recreational bike trails, which are pretty much snowmobile, racing and ATV tracks for self-powered vehicles are paid for by taxpayers. Especially since these trails are used by nobody except carbon fiber frame riding elitists, not actual cyclists. (You know, actual cyclists; the types whose bikes are made out of this thing called "metal".)
KNHE, before you prejudge cyclists as being holier than thou, just remember, you're sitting in a metal box judging people enjoying a legal and socially acceptable behavior in their communities. And I will reiterate.. if you don't like people legally riding their bikes on the streets, get out of your car, go drag yourself over to Saint Paul (I know how much you love that city) and lobby your rear end off and get the law changed. Or else quit whining and accept the fact that cyclists are simply another part of city traffic.
Location: An overgrown 350K person suburb of Saint Paul
383 posts, read 900,551 times
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Agreed UU. Bike paths work in places where bikes are a feasible transportation option. Bike paths/lanes in Rosemount=poorly planned. Bike lane in Frogtown=a good investment.
Thanks to ColdRedRain for giving the perspective of the bicyclist.
I'm always amazed to hear the people complaining about bicyclists like they are ALL these law-breaking, crazed, self-important, rogue group. Share the Road (http://www.sharetheroadmn.org/rules.html - broken link) Rule number 1: Bicyclists may ride on all Minnesota roads, except where restricted.
Are we all in that much of a hurry all the time that we can't slow down for a few bicyclists once in awhile? Are these complainers that same ones that won't slow down or stop for pedestrians trying to cross the streets too?
Of course I've seen bicyclists not obey the rules- but I've seen a heck of alot more dangerous drivers and they have the potential to do way more damage.
Thanks to ColdRedRain for giving the perspective of the bicyclist.
I'm always amazed to hear the people complaining about bicyclists like they are ALL these law-breaking, crazed, self-important, rogue group. Share the Road (http://www.sharetheroadmn.org/rules.html - broken link) Rule number 1: Bicyclists may ride on all Minnesota roads, except where restricted.
Are we all in that much of a hurry all the time that we can't slow down for a few bicyclists once in awhile? Are these complainers that same ones that won't slow down or stop for pedestrians trying to cross the streets too?
Of course I've seen bicyclists not obey the rules- but I've seen a heck of alot more dangerous drivers and they have the potential to do way more damage.
Share the road people!!!
What constitutes reckless or dangerous biking or driving is certainly up to any individual's discretion, but the fact of the matter is, that I see cyclists doing things that are expressly *illegal* far, far, far more often than I see cars do it. I can probably count on one hand the times I have seen a car blow a stop sign or red stoplight in the past six months, for instance, but I see cyclists do that *all the time*.
This is not to say that every cyclist is a dangerous cyclist or a lawbreaker, but the proportion of cyclists, in my experience, who break traffic laws is much higher than the proportion of drivers who break traffic laws. And it appears as though a lot of people here agree with me, which is refreshing, because I was starting to think I was in the minority....
On an unrelated note, ColdRedRain, why do you insist upon making this a suburbs vs. cities debate when there is clearly a problem with that on this board already?
And with such lopsided knowledge and unfounded insinuations... When I was growing up in GV, we walked to school, friends' houses, shopping centers, etc. ALL the TIME. I am making a wild guess here that you don't actually have the prior knowledge of suburbs necessary to make some of the statements you do about them, especially insinuations like "all suburbanites are provincials that live in the 'hinterland.'"
Location: An overgrown 350K person suburb of Saint Paul
383 posts, read 900,551 times
Reputation: 248
Well, if some people from the 'burbs I encountered both on this board and away from this board weren't so damn snobby when they came to the city and didn't do stuff like complain about our "weird food", the lack of Applebees and Perkins in our cities, didn't freak out when they saw an interracial couple, harassed our cyclists, and then to boot, pretended to be from the city, sometimes the "wrong" city.
I wouldn't really give a rip if somebody was from the city or the suburbs. To me, the suburbs are just another place to live and nothing more. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. The 'burbs are spread out and farther away from the hustle and bustle from the city, but the 'burbs are also cookie cutter like, plain and a bit sectioned off, which leads to the coldness, passive aggression and one upsmanship you usually see in the 'burbs. It's sort of like how the closeness of the city and the massive amounts of municipal resources leads to people showing a lack of respect for private property when they're in the suburbs.
Again, I'm not Anti-Suburb. My girlfriend's from the suburbs. For a brief time, I lived in the suburbs. My entire social circle are from the suburbs. I'm almost always in Eagan. If I had such a dislike for the 'burbs, I wouldn't date somebody from Eagan. The only thing I really dislike about the suburbs are sheltered, self important snobs that live there. But then again, we have dirty snobs in the city too who go into the suburbs and treat the people over there like they're clueless rubes and then trash the place. That also pisses me off and I call city people on their snobbishness towards suburbanites too. Again, I don't really bother give a crap about where anybody lives.
Also, I may be a bit blunt with how I say things, but it's a part of my family's culture. We're not Scandinavian, much like most Minnesotans, so I'm a bit in your face and straight with how I feel. My style of communication isn't "nice", but then again, look what's "nice". Declawed kittens. White linen polo shirts. Richard Marx songs. Yeah, I kind of chuckled when I saw that too.
What constitutes reckless or dangerous biking or driving is certainly up to any individual's discretion, but the fact of the matter is, that I see cyclists doing things that are expressly *illegal* far, far, far more often than I see cars do it. I can probably count on one hand the times I have seen a car blow a stop sign or red stoplight in the past six months, for instance, but I see cyclists do that *all the time*.
This is not to say that every cyclist is a dangerous cyclist or a lawbreaker, but the proportion of cyclists, in my experience, who break traffic laws is much higher than the proportion of drivers who break traffic laws. And it appears as though a lot of people here agree with me, which is refreshing, because I was starting to think I was in the minority....
I'm curious about this perspective because it is so different than my experiences and what I've seen. I don't question what you have experienced, but I'm wondering if the difference is where we live and what bikers we encounter?? I live next to some heavily travelled bike paths and on commuter routes to the city. I also happen to know about at least 30 or so people who commute to work. I rarely see bikers (and again, I see hundreds every day) that are driving in a reckless manner and the commuting bikers I know are extremely careful.
Or is it a difference of opinion on what constitutes reckless driving? Although I see bikers roll through stop signs- I wouldn't categorize this as aggregious, but rather similar to a car speeding or jay-walking. The bikers usually slow down, look both ways and then proceed. (I'm referring to stop signs at minor intersections and not major roads). This may not be the safest, but I guess it just doesn't strike me as any different than cars that go 65 in a 55 mph zone.
I don't think ColdRedRain made it into a city-versus-suburbs issue; Golfgal had noted that people in her area didn't use the bike trails, and he pointed out the differences between recreational trails and roads. Obviously not all suburbs are the same, either, and Golden Valley and the other older suburbs probably share more characteristics with city neighborhoods than they do with the modern exurbs that are the ones that often get criticized and somehow have come to represent all the suburbs.
I can think of multiple times within the past few DAYS in which I have seen drivers doing illegal things, both in the city and in the suburbs. Both drivers and bikers (and pedestrians) need to follow the rules.
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