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It is nearly impossible to give an honest ranking of schools within a state , even if using a very narrow criteria.
Absurd for Newsweek to try a national ranking.
As long as the ranker (in this case Newsweek) is forthright about how the rankings are compiled, I don't think they are being dishonest. Parents don't use the same criteria to select schools, so I think it's valid to see different sets of "rankings" based on different criteria.
It seems to me that the people that are dissing this ranking are doing so because their schools aren't on the list. I'm sure there are other lists, based on other criteria that include those schools they feel are worthy. That's fine. Not everyone judges schools in the same way and it's better to have ranking based on criteria that's definable- rather than stereotyping or stories of "someone I know....".
As long as the ranker (in this case Newsweek) is forthright about how the rankings are compiled, I don't think they are being dishonest. Parents don't use the same criteria to select schools, so I think it's valid to see different sets of "rankings" based on different criteria.
It seems to me that the people that are dissing this ranking are doing so because their schools aren't on the list. I'm sure there are other lists, based on other criteria that include those schools they feel are worthy. That's fine. Not everyone judges schools in the same way and it's better to have ranking based on criteria that's definable- rather than stereotyping or stories of "someone I know....".
Yes, and most people didn't get worked up when Edina or some other wealthy suburban school tops the list. I think people have preconceived notions and are lashing out when a school that, based on their personal opinions, doesn't deserve to be on or on top of the list. Or are bitter because their favored school didn't make the cut.
I certainly don't think these rankings are perfect, and do believe they leave out a lot of factors. They're pretty upfront about that, though, and note that some things simply aren't quantifiable. Numbers don't tell the whole story, which is exactly why looking at school averages for test scores and other such figures can also be misleading. The Newsweek numbers are useful for parents who do have children going the IB/AP route. The specific rankings are kind of pointless (although still interesting); for all practical purposes I doubt there's much, if any, difference between being #100, 150, 300, or even 800 on the list. And true, the test-based rankings don't necessarily have much relevance for the struggling students who won't be taking any of these advanced classes. School choice is always personal, but these rankings are as valid as any other in an attempt to bring some sort of objectivity to something very subjective. I wouldn't choose my school based on these rankings alone, certainly, but it does provide one more piece of useful information and comparative data to draw on when evaluating the options. Just take it for what it is.
I don't understand why you are insisting that is in no way a representation of the entire school. Every student has access to many of those courses and tests. Not every single student is taking advantage of them, but that's true of any school -- and that is one of the factors incorporated into these rankings.
The IB/honors school within a school programs skew the Newsweek numbers horribly. A few years back, you could pick out something like 5 Florida schools with that kind of set-up where Newsweek said they were one of the Top 100 schools in the country but the state of Florida gave those same schools D and F grades because the kids outside the honors program had such low levels of academic achievement and were so far below grade level.
Yes, and most people didn't get worked up when Edina or some other wealthy suburban school tops the list. I think people have preconceived notions and are lashing out when a school that, based on their personal opinions, doesn't deserve to be on or on top of the list. Or are bitter because their favored school didn't make the cut.
I certainly don't think these rankings are perfect, and do believe they leave out a lot of factors. They're pretty upfront about that, though, and note that some things simply aren't quantifiable. Numbers don't tell the whole story, which is exactly why looking at school averages for test scores and other such figures can also be misleading. The Newsweek numbers are useful for parents who do have children going the IB/AP route. The specific rankings are kind of pointless (although still interesting); for all practical purposes I doubt there's much, if any, difference between being #100, 150, 300, or even 800 on the list. And true, the test-based rankings don't necessarily have much relevance for the struggling students who won't be taking any of these advanced classes. School choice is always personal, but these rankings are as valid as any other in an attempt to bring some sort of objectivity to something very subjective. I wouldn't choose my school based on these rankings alone, certainly, but it does provide one more piece of useful information and comparative data to draw on when evaluating the options. Just take it for what it is.
People that are "dising' the list are doing so because it is not accurate in any way, shape or form and those that think their school is good because of that are just fooling themselves. When you have a school where less than 70% of your students go on to a 4 year college compared to 94+%, then we will talk about "good schools". The difference between a Minneapolis school ranking and Edina's ranking it Edina takes into consideration their entire school, not just a small, small portion of their top students only.
The IB/honors school within a school programs skew the Newsweek numbers horribly. A few years back, you could pick out something like 5 Florida schools with that kind of set-up where Newsweek said they were one of the Top 100 schools in the country but the state of Florida gave those same schools D and F grades because the kids outside the honors program had such low levels of academic achievement and were so far below grade level.
I don't know if this can really be counted as skewing, though. Certainly the IB/AP students are a very different group than the kids who are dropping out and failing, but that's true of any school. One could say that the kids at the bottom are also skewing the results. Why should only the poorest performing students define a school? At least at a school with IB/AP classes everyone has the opportunity to get a top education. The honors kids certainly don't define the entire school, but either do the kids who are failing. For those parents who do have children in the honors programs it is the honors options that matter and are relevant.
None of that is to say that I don't place equal value on making sure that the students who are failing also get a great education. But this ranking system isn't trying to look at whether or not every student is succeeding. Newsweek does, however, try to look mostly at "regular" schools by filtering out schools that have an extremely high concentration of top students. And the Challenge Index used in these rankings are designed to try to reflect the access that average students, and not just a handful of honors students, have to the honors programs.
I agree that this system isn't perfect, but for many city schools (or suburban or rural schools with a very diverse student body) this is just as valid a way of looking at quality of education as is looking at the bottom students. That's why looking at as many different numbers as possible (as well as the list of classes offered, etc.) provide a broader picture of the whole than does any one single ranking system. A school with a highly-ranked IB/AP program doesn't mean that a kid who is barely getting by will have a great education, but it's equally true that looking at the struggling students at those same schools and assuming that their test scores have anything to do with the education of the honors students is also erroneous.
"Best" is subjective, and in this case, "best" seems to be looking mostly at average to high-achieving students, not the lowest performing students in the school.
People that are "dising' the list are doing so because it is not accurate in any way, shape or form and those that think their school is good because of that are just fooling themselves. When you have a school where less than 70% of your students go on to a 4 year college compared to 94+%, then we will talk about "good schools". The difference between a Minneapolis school ranking and Edina's ranking it Edina takes into consideration their entire school, not just a small, small portion of their top students only.
That statistic doesn't say a whole lot about the quality of education provided by the school either. I would say money has more to do with that than anything else. Wealthier schools are going to have more students jumping straight into 4 year colleges than schools where a high % are from low-income households. I met a high school dropout from Washburn HS the other day who is now a well-to-do software engineer. He told me his decision to drop out was strictly for financial reasons. I think scenarios like this are fairly common in low-income households whereas it's basically non-existant for students in wealthy schools like Edina, Wayzata, etc.
People that are "dising' the list are doing so because it is not accurate in any way, shape or form and those that think their school is good because of that are just fooling themselves. When you have a school where less than 70% of your students go on to a 4 year college compared to 94+%, then we will talk about "good schools". The difference between a Minneapolis school ranking and Edina's ranking it Edina takes into consideration their entire school, not just a small, small portion of their top students only.
WHERE, WHERE, WHERE does it say that Edina takes into consideration their entire school, and Southwest does NOT? You still have not given me the citation for this, and I have not been able to find it in the Newsweek information that I have read. Newsweek, in fact, goes out of its way to say that they DON'T only look at the IB/AP kids. Please read the FAQ.
And what do you define as a "small, small portion of their top students only?" Are you seriously trying to suggest that 750 students out of 1600 is a "small, small portion?" (and that is IB only, and does not include those non-IB students taking AP classes)
Let's at least start by getting the basic facts right.
(and again, from the FAQ: "We take the total number of Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate or Cambridge (AICE) tests given at a school each year and divide by the number of seniors graduating in May or June." In other words: ENTIRE STUDENT BODY.)
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 06-15-2010 at 03:27 PM..
I think Southwest is good because I went there myself (maybe my education was just so inferior that I don't have the skills to evaluate the evidence to the contrary? If so, I must have managed to slip one over the eyes of my college and grad school professors...), because I know people who work there, because I know people who have had children there more recently, and because I have volunteered there. I know that not every student is succeeding; that's undoubtedly true at your child's school, too. But enough is enough. I realize you don't like city schools, but the facts do speak for themselves: not every student is going to be Ivy League-bound, but the motivated students who attend Southwest are no different from those who attend Edina, St. Louis Park, Wayzata, or any other high-ranking school. They're receiving an excellent education, have access to a full range of AP and IB classes, and will soon be joining their peers from wealthier public and private schools in top colleges around the country. And please, enough with the "handful" comments and the "small, small portion" references, or at least back up your allegations with facts (such as actual numbers) so that outside observers aren't led to think that handful means, say, 20 or so kids taking IB/AP classes while the rest of the school is barely literate. We both know (or, if you don't know, then either take my word for it or visit the school and see for yourself) that this is simply not the case.
ETA: in case anyone is interested, number of National Merit semi-finalists are another way of seeing whether or not students are getting anything out of their education; given that Southwest had 8 of them for the 2010 program (the same number as Blake), I think it's fair to say something is working. I certainly don't consider National Merit to be the only accurate judge of quality, either (Rosemount, for example, had no semi-finalists, but I agree that it seems to be a good school, and the test numbers for the general student body as a whole are almost identical to Southwest), but it should be reassuring to any parents who are concerned that their child won't be able to get a great education in a city school.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 06-26-2010 at 12:48 AM..
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