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Old 07-18-2011, 12:52 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
1,472 posts, read 3,537,753 times
Reputation: 1583

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Guard your schools/higher education system zealously. We (California) had the best K-12 system in the country when I was a kid and now we're fighting it out with Mississippi for the worst. Shortchanging them to keep your taxes low is akin to cutting your own throat (and learn from our example). I honestly think many taxpayers here don't care because the bulk of the student body now doesn't look like them.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:53 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,163,275 times
Reputation: 10693
Quote:
Originally Posted by barney_rubble View Post
How old is "fairly old"? What was the reason for replacement?

This is an argument for lowering school spending, not keeping it high. If MN provides higher wages than ND but the latter still has good schools, why are higher wages needed? By your logic, ND schools should suck because there's no incentive for teachers to go there instead of working in MN. But that's not the case.
The schools we have attended have been on a 7 year cycle for replacement. The past couple years some of those cycles have been delayed because of budget issues. Our school is moving more toward online textbooks/information, which I am happy about, but not every house has a computer for each student either.
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:08 PM
 
2,618 posts, read 6,152,279 times
Reputation: 2119
I wish parents and households had more control over what is taught to their children rather than a government bureaucracy deciding what's best or what standards should be held.

You're seeing technology play a stronger role which is important, but I've read articles about homeschooling becoming more popular, as well as private schooling. Government funded education isn't living up to the standards of other institutions and is proving costly on tax payers. It's inefficient and won't become MORE efficient by simply throwing more money at it.

I personally think in the next couple decades that privatized education will become more the norm.
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,984 posts, read 13,376,888 times
Reputation: 3370
Not all parents have the education or knowledge to develop school curricula or the willingness to see their child(ren) learn. Would you really want high-school dropout parents deciding what schools should teach?
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:14 AM
 
1,816 posts, read 3,018,213 times
Reputation: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by barney_rubble View Post
How old is "fairly old"? What was the reason for replacement?
They were replaced typically because they eventually fell apart or were horribly outdated. My school wasn't some shiny suburban school in the Twin Cities and we didn't get new books for no new reason (not saying TC schools are all rich or get textbooks all the time either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by barney_rubble
This is an argument for lowering school spending, not keeping it high. If MN provides higher wages than ND but the latter still has good schools, why are higher wages needed? By your logic, ND schools should suck because there's no incentive for teachers to go there instead of working in MN. But that's not the case.
I wasn't arguing for higher or lower funding. I was trying to explain perhaps why we're doing well with high funding (and why ND is doing well with lower funding). I don't pretend to possess absolute knowledge, but something also tells me that Fargo schools (which are pretty good) probably have teacher salaries that are in line with Minnesota schools. It's likely the rural schools that bring those numbers down.

Regardless, you should put in what you expect and want to get out. If North Dakota wants to spend less, let them. And if Minnesota decides to spend more, so be it. Last I saw, Minnesotans weren't living any worse off than North Dakotans.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:22 AM
 
326 posts, read 869,934 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by xandrex View Post
They were replaced typically because they eventually fell apart or were horribly outdated. My school wasn't some shiny suburban school in the Twin Cities and we didn't get new books for no new reason (not saying TC schools are all rich or get textbooks all the time either).
What kind of textbook would be "horribly outdated" after 7 years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by xandrex View Post
I wasn't arguing for higher or lower funding. I was trying to explain perhaps why we're doing well with high funding (and why ND is doing well with lower funding). I don't pretend to possess absolute knowledge, but something also tells me that Fargo schools (which are pretty good) probably have teacher salaries that are in line with Minnesota schools. It's likely the rural schools that bring those numbers down.

Regardless, you should put in what you expect and want to get out. If North Dakota wants to spend less, let them. And if Minnesota decides to spend more, so be it. Last I saw, Minnesotans weren't living any worse off than North Dakotans.
It doesn't really make sense to me to pay more unless you get something for the money.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:53 AM
 
9,682 posts, read 11,083,909 times
Reputation: 8429
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Yep, poverty is a huge issue, same reason why the Minneapolis schools score so much lower than the suburban schools. There is a point to which you do need to fund schools, you can't just keep cutting and cutting and cutting and expect results. Have you tried to buy a textbook lately-how about buying 500-800 textbooks at $200/each...for one class. How about a desk, bought a desk lately. What exactly do you suggest we cut????
For some reason or another, schools seem to have the desire to get new books in subjects like math, physics, English, Spanish, psychology etc. Why??? Nothing has really changed in the past couple of decades. In colleges for instance, they replace the books every couple years. Smart people know why: follow the money. But that's chump change in comparison to the real overhead. Additionally, schools assume that new computers / technology is the answer to better scores. Heck, some schools take tests now with cell phones.

I've spent some time candidly talking to District 11's school board which is the larges in the state. The reality is the bulk of the overhead is related to state and federal mandates. To use one example, if a student has a sever disability, the district might spend $50K on them with the desired goal of teaching them to tie their shoes.

In the poorer districts, there are a lot more need so the average cost per pupil can skyrocket to $17K (MPLS or instance). That fact helps people who want to manipulate the statistics to "prove" that money doesn't correlate to test scores. So money does correlate to test scores up to a certain point but falls apart when the money turns into babysitting.

Just look at how many babysitters are in the schools these days. Police liaisons, multiple assistant principals, etc. Those people are employed because of the lack of parenting and is the real reason why we are not getting our monies worth. The solution is to roll back the federal mandates and fire the overhead.
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:26 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,163,275 times
Reputation: 10693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
For some reason or another, schools seem to have the desire to get new books in subjects like math, physics, English, Spanish, psychology etc. Why??? Nothing has really changed in the past couple of decades. In colleges for instance, they replace the books every couple years. Smart people know why: follow the money. But that's chump change in comparison to the real overhead. Additionally, schools assume that new computers / technology is the answer to better scores. Heck, some schools take tests now with cell phones.

I've spent some time candidly talking to District 11's school board which is the larges in the state. The reality is the bulk of the overhead is related to state and federal mandates. To use one example, if a student has a sever disability, the district might spend $50K on them with the desired goal of teaching them to tie their shoes.

In the poorer districts, there are a lot more need so the average cost per pupil can skyrocket to $17K (MPLS or instance). That fact helps people who want to manipulate the statistics to "prove" that money doesn't correlate to test scores. So money does correlate to test scores up to a certain point but falls apart when the money turns into babysitting.

Just look at how many babysitters are in the schools these days. Police liaisons, multiple assistant principals, etc. Those people are employed because of the lack of parenting and is the real reason why we are not getting our monies worth. The solution is to roll back the federal mandates and fire the overhead.
I agree with this 100%, the special ed programs are chewing up district budgets. Those programs were SUPPOSED to be paid for out of federal dollars but they are not being funded through local districts.
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Old 07-25-2011, 07:41 AM
 
2,618 posts, read 6,152,279 times
Reputation: 2119
Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Not all parents have the education or knowledge to develop school curricula or the willingness to see their child(ren) learn. Would you really want high-school dropout parents deciding what schools should teach?
So being a high school dropout automatically means you're stupid and incapable of educating children? Where does it say that? There are plenty of materials and curriculum for parents to gain access to as a guild to educating their kids if they so choose.

Besides, what right does the GOVERNMENT have over the NATURAL PARENTS to decide what's best for their child's education? I'd trust myself and expect that I have the right to decide over a government bureaucracy. At least maybe those parents have a really good chance to give their kids a solid education. If the parents are dropouts then odds are they don't have a lot of money, in which the public school system will most likely fail them.

Sorry, but it makes me sick when people believe the government knows better than people and should make decisions for us.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:59 AM
 
Location: MN
378 posts, read 705,733 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdubs3201 View Post
So being a high school dropout automatically means you're stupid and incapable of educating children? Where does it say that? There are plenty of materials and curriculum for parents to gain access to as a guild to educating their kids if they so choose.

Besides, what right does the GOVERNMENT have over the NATURAL PARENTS to decide what's best for their child's education? I'd trust myself and expect that I have the right to decide over a government bureaucracy. At least maybe those parents have a really good chance to give their kids a solid education. If the parents are dropouts then odds are they don't have a lot of money, in which the public school system will most likely fail them.

Sorry, but it makes me sick when people believe the government knows better than people and should make decisions for us.
I have nothing against privatized education. But homeschooling is terribly inefficient. The time and resources devoted are absurdly high.

And nobody has said anything about denying parents the right to homeschool their kids if they want to.
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