US News Ranks Top High Schools in Nation and MN

[Beenhere4ever]

Originally Posted by kuan

Here's another list:

America's Best High Schools - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

Interesting. Rather see school districts and states ranked on similar bases. In a big state like Illinois or Texas, you could have enclave schools, surrounded by mediocrity.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

Interesting. Rather see school districts and states ranked on similar bases. In a big state like Illinois or Texas, you could have enclave schools, surrounded by mediocrity.

That is a little better list, some of the numbers are off but at least it looks at scores and outcomes vs just "hey, everyone, let's take a test".

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

ACT and SAT have always been given to predict success in college. Because they are given across districts and states, average performance is valid to predict college success by students in the states where they are taken. College success is predicated on pre-college success. Yours is the "logic fail".

The "logic fail" was a reference to the "no colleges would agree with you" comment, followed by a reference to colleges that apparently DO disagree, given that they make the tests optional! I think even the most die-hard test fans must be aware that the tests are not without controversy.

And no, the SAT and ACT are not designed to compare SCHOOLS; they are designed to compare INDIVIDUALS. To do that, you'd have to have all students from each school take the test. If some states or schools have all students take the test, while in other schools or states only some kids take the test, you're not getting numbers that are valid for comparing quality of the schools themselves. If you want apples to apples comparisons of schools -- or states -- you've got to have apples to apples testing conditions.

[Beenhere4ever]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

The "logic fail" was a reference to the "no colleges would agree with you" comment, followed by a reference to colleges that apparently DO disagree, given that they make the tests optional! I think even the most die-hard test fans must be aware that the tests are not without controversy.

And no, the SAT and ACT are not designed to compare SCHOOLS; they are designed to compare INDIVIDUALS. To do that, you'd have to have all students from each school take the test. If some states or schools have all students take the test, while in other schools or states only some kids take the test, you're not getting numbers that are valid for comparing quality of the schools themselves. If you want apples to apples comparisons of schools -- or states -- you've got to have apples to apples testing conditions.

The fact is that ACT averages do work to measure how schools do in preparing people to succeed. That they weren't "designed" is not that important. Viagra wasn't "designed" for its chief use. I could probably make an extremely long list of things used for something other than what it was "designed" for. The internal combustion engine was meant to burn biofuel, not gasoline. So? But the No Child Left Behind was designed to make schools look bad by an administration antipathetic to the education sector. It's like a husband in a divorce case being forced to prove something according to his wife's standards.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

The "logic fail" was a reference to the "no colleges would agree with you" comment, followed by a reference to colleges that apparently DO disagree, given that they make the tests optional! I think even the most die-hard test fans must be aware that the tests are not without controversy.

And no, the SAT and ACT are not designed to compare SCHOOLS; they are designed to compare INDIVIDUALS. To do that, you'd have to have all students from each school take the test. If some states or schools have all students take the test, while in other schools or states only some kids take the test, you're not getting numbers that are valid for comparing quality of the schools themselves. If you want apples to apples comparisons of schools -- or states -- you've got to have apples to apples testing conditions.

Which is what the ACT and SAT do short of putting every child in the US in the same room at the same time. The tests are given on the same days at the same times with the same material across the country. It's as close a you are going to come and colleges, even test optional schools, use this to compare students and schools nationwide. If a college gets a bunch of applications from a school and the kids are all 4.0 students, yet they only score 22-24 on the ACT, the colleges know that there is either a lot of grade inflation or the coursework just isn't challenging enough. Along with the ACT they can look at AP results and if a school averages a 2 on their AP tests, it's pretty obvious that the students are not being challenged. If another school has applications into that school but they are all 3.7 GPA's but are scoring 30-33 on the ACT, it's pretty obvious that it's a much more difficult school with better outcomes. Most students at test optional schools still send in their scores because you can't get merit awards without them. They also can see that a student that applies that has no advanced courses and low grades isn't going to do well and won't get accepted. When your 5 year old goes through this process you will understand--for those of us that have high school students going through the process, we get it already.

[Beenhere4ever]

I think the goal is to have Minnesota seniors rank as high as possible as college entrant candidates. Frankly, that is exactly where business needs high schools to put their grads. The future is with high-performing students. Every state has its share of failures in this regard. But the shrinking labor markets are for jobs anyone can do. Hard to see a future for people in that stratum. Contrary to what sports fans tell you, excellent students are what make a state competitive. Not overpaid athletes.