Northstar Rail (Minneapolis, Duluth, Rochester: cul-de-sac, house, transfer to)

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Slig

What you are describing is exactly why suburb to suburb rails don't make sense. People in the suburbs are car dependant and as a result they drive everywhere, they don't use public transportation...and I don't think that would really change much if a light rail line was made available to them.

Chicken/egg---pretty much everyone I know would be happy to take public transportation if there was an option going to their offices, that isn't the case. Most people do NOT work in Minneapolis, period, whether you want to believe that or not. If people in the suburbs had the option to take the light rail from Rosemount to Eagan, they would most of the time. Even if we had an option to take a bus and not have to pay like we are going all the way into Minneapolis and have goofy routes so it takes 2 hours to go 15 milies, people would take a bus. They just don't have that option. People in the suburbs DO use public transportation when they can. Most people I know take the light rail if they go into Minneapolis--but they still have to drive to Bloomington to catch the rail....

[Ghengis]

It should be obvious that most people who choose to live in St Cloud do so to embrace what qualities St Cloud has to offer, not with a longing to be part of Minneapolis. The addition of a Ramsey station will cost $13 million and is expected to add 200 riders, how does this make any sense at all? Extending the tracks out to St Cloud thinking ridership will suddenly soar is foolish and throwing good money after bad. I'm thankful it will likely never happen.

[1stpontiac]

Originally Posted by xandrex

This is definitely a failure of the Northstar line. The fact that it doesn't connect to St. Cloud definitely kills a lot of its use. But now it's likely doomed to never connect because the poor planning and execution have left it with limited number of riders. Sort of a catch-22 in a way.

I really question how much the St. Cloud extension would offer. How many Minneapolis people EVER go to St. Cloud? And as for the other way, again the line would only be helpful to people who live in St. Cloud and work in Downtown Minneapolis.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by 1stpontiac

I really question how much the St. Cloud extension would offer. How many Minneapolis people EVER go to St. Cloud? And as for the other way, again the line would only be helpful to people who live in St. Cloud and work in Downtown Minneapolis.

Or want to go to a play or a Vikings game or Twins game or shop at the MOA or spend time at the lakes, or spend a weekend at a hotel in Minneapolis or attend a convention at the Dome......

[iNviNciBL3]

Originally Posted by 1stpontiac

How many Minneapolis people EVER go to St. Cloud?

Well maybe if they had the option to take a train up there and not have to drive i bet the some Minneapolis people would be happy to take a little trip to St Cloud.

Plus the St Cloud residents and College students at Saint Cloud State would probably love to take a train down to Minneapolis

[1stpontiac]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Or want to go to a play or a Vikings game or Twins game or shop at the MOA or spend time at the lakes, or spend a weekend at a hotel in Minneapolis or attend a convention at the Dome......

Sure, and the Twins games make up a significant portion of the Northstar ridership. The question is, would the rest of those things add enough riders from St. Cloud to justify the additional cost of operating that far out?

Vikings games - Definitely would be a draw...but only, what, 8 times a year?
Shop at MOA - From St. Cloud, this would be at least a 1 hour, 45 min trip, and include one (admittedly easy) transfer between trains. Add in timing issues with making sure you get back home, carrying all your bags, and free parking at the MOA and why wouldn't you drive?
Spend time at the lakes - No practical way to get from the train station to the lakes = driving again.
Weekend at hotel in Minneapolis - How many outstate people want to come hang out in Minneapolis for a weekend without a car, though? Plus, the Northstar service is pretty limited on weekends.
Attend convention at the Dome - Probably some traffic here, but I work right by the dome and never sense a large amount of traffic going to or from the dome, so I think ~50 riders per day would be on the high side.


All of those would add some numbers to the weekly total, but enough to justify the millions it would take to add stations, personnel hours, and whatever they pay to use the tracks? The way the system is set up, it really has to rely on daily commuters and regular, large volume events like 80 Twins games a year.

[1stpontiac]

Originally Posted by BobMarley_1LOVE

Well maybe if they had the option to take a train up there and not have to drive i bet the some Minneapolis people would be happy to take a little trip to St Cloud.

Maybe once or twice, for the novelty, but that's about it. Not a knock on St. Cloud at all, but what does it have to offer that would regularly entice MSP people to go there?

Originally Posted by BobMarley_1LOVE

Plus the St Cloud residents and College students at Saint Cloud State would probably love to take a train down to Minneapolis

Again, some traffic from students going home or to visit friends I'm sure. But the train doesn't run at night, so its not going to work to run down for some bar hoping or shopping in the evening.

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Chicken/egg---pretty much everyone I know would be happy to take public transportation if there was an option going to their offices, that isn't the case. Most people do NOT work in Minneapolis, period, whether you want to believe that or not. If people in the suburbs had the option to take the light rail from Rosemount to Eagan, they would most of the time. Even if we had an option to take a bus and not have to pay like we are going all the way into Minneapolis and have goofy routes so it takes 2 hours to go 15 milies, people would take a bus. They just don't have that option. People in the suburbs DO use public transportation when they can. Most people I know take the light rail if they go into Minneapolis--but they still have to drive to Bloomington to catch the rail....

As I detailed in a post on the previous page, a system like this wouldn't work. Suburbs were built with cars in mind, not public transportation. That means they're spread out and have a lot of roads that lack sidewalks (specifically many of the four-lane quasi-highways). Trains can't stop at every single workplace...there are too many. So you'd have to limit stops to a few places in town. But doing that would mean that many people would be left in an office park (presumably they'd stop in places like there where a decent amount of people work) and then have to walk in areas that aren't designed for walking and out to wherever they work.

Not only that, but where do the stations going near homes? The Hiawatha line stops in several neighborhoods, but during the day, people getting on and off at these stations is fairly light (obviously rush hour would be different). Now imagine putting rail in the suburbs. Though many of Hiawatha's residential stops are near SFHs, the suburbs have larger lot sizes, often lack a grid that is more efficient, and don't have the greatest feeder system of transportation (whereas if you live in a SFH in South Minneapolis, you can probably walk down the street and catch a bus that will bring you to the light rail).

In essence, rail from suburb to suburb simply can't work at this point. The area isn't dense enough. People would STILL choose their cars because it would actually be harder (and take considerably more time with walking to the station, waiting for a train, hopping on the train, getting to the destination, then walking on perhaps busy and unsafe roads to their workplace) to take light rail from their home to their work. And if they already have a car and parking is free everywhere, why would they bother?

Light rail from the suburb to the city works because despite the fact that many people don't work in DT Minneapolis, it is by far the densest work destination in the metro. That is what matters, not where most of the metro works. Let's also not forget that DT Minneapolis isn't the only destination for working in Minneapolis. Some of the hospitals (Abbot Northwestern, VA Medical Center), University of Minnesota, the Wells Fargo mortgage place, and others aren't downtown, but all of these could be accessed by a light rail-to-bus transfer.

The better solution is to talk to the Minnesota Valley Transit Authority and get them to improve suburb-to-suburb bus service for your area. They're apparently doing quite well with their suburb-to-downtown services as 2011 was apparently their second best year on record. If people in Rosemount really want service to Apple Valley, they need to actually demand it. The problem is, they really don't care and don't want to take the bus, clearly. They'd rather drive.

Originally Posted by Ghengis

It should be obvious that most people who choose to live in St Cloud do so to embrace what qualities St Cloud has to offer, not with a longing to be part of Minneapolis. The addition of a Ramsey station will cost $13 million and is expected to add 200 riders, how does this make any sense at all? Extending the tracks out to St Cloud thinking ridership will suddenly soar is foolish and throwing good money after bad. I'm thankful it will likely never happen.

Let's not forget that many people move a long ways out to get cheap housing and then take a very long commute. There are people who commute to Minneapolis from St. Cloud, so that certainly could help. Plus, many SCSU students could take this down to Minneapolis and get picked up by parents if they don't have a car, or take it down if they need to catch a flight out of Minneapolis. People could go to any of the Twins, Vikings, Wild, Timberwolves, Gophers, Lynx, etc. from St. Cloud.

I wouldn't be surprised if ridership at least doubled. I know they'll never extend the line, but it would almost have been better to not have a line at all than to make a deal to build a half line. In its current state, the Northstar is nifty for the new people who can use it, but it really missed out on some potential.

Originally Posted by 1stpontiac

Again, some traffic from students going home or to visit friends I'm sure. But the train doesn't run at night, so its not going to work to run down for some bar hoping or shopping in the evening.

Surely the system could be changed, especially if ridership increased, to allow more flexible train times.

[iNviNciBL3]

Originally Posted by 1stpontiac

Maybe once or twice, for the novelty, but that's about it. Not a knock on St. Cloud at all, but what does it have to offer that would regularly entice MSP people to go there?

The downtown area really isn't bad plus people like going out exploring different cities, plus im pretty sure there is plenty of people who have friends or family to visit somewhere between Saint Cloud and Anoka, There is plenty of people who find driving on 94 stressful, Maybe people from up north and from around Fargo will park in Saint Cloud and take the train to Minneapolis.

[1stpontiac]

So, for the record, I ride the northstar daily, love it, and would recommend anyone else who has the opportunity to use it to do so.

But, funding for such projects is limited, so they should be put in where they will be most effective. Nothing I've that's been said about St. Cloud strikes me as anything that will generate significant amounts of ridership. Sure, maybe the downtown is nice, but there is nothing there that you can't get in MSP, so you'd only have the occasional weekend roadtripper. Same with college students heading home, etc. Just not enough demand to support millions of dollars of operating costs.

So you've got to justify the budget on the basis of commuters and large volume special events. Currently, the Northstar Link bus does ~70,000 boardings/year. This equals about 200 rides per day which is 100 individual riders per day. What is the investment to get from 1,500 rides per day to 1,600 rides per day and is it worth it?

As for adjusting the schedule to make it more appealing to evenings out entertainment...again that's more cost to operate and is that the best place to spend public transportation money?