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Old 07-15-2012, 10:54 AM
 
270 posts, read 555,690 times
Reputation: 150

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiogenesofJackson View Post
What a sick world we live in where the United States has to send folks to Afghanistan, Iraq to take the lives of other human beings--I think you lose points on consistency when you make blanket statements like the very first one in the quoted section above.

No one has answered one of my initial questions on this thread: how is anybody forcing anything down anyone's throats? Whodat and others consistently state that they are opposed to homosexuality and homosexual marriages and homosexual unions--so obviously nothing has been forced down their throats.

Whodat claims that if they don't accept the so-called homosexual agenda, then he and others with the same beliefs will be considered hateful and repugnant--but that's not evidence of forcing anything down one's throat because whodat is free to associate with others who believe as he does--that homosexuality is some perverse and sinful act.

So the terms "force" in this context are entirely misplaced. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. The way anti-homosexuality people frame their opinions makes it seem as if some homosexual is trying to force his lifestyle onto you--that is he/she is trying to make you become a homosexual--and this is not the case at all. Homosexuals merely want to live life free of discrimination and to take advantage of all the privileges and guarantees of being an American citizen and living in a free society. That's all they want, but the religionists on this thread seem to equate homosexuals' appeals for full citizenship to be this unholy specter of forcing homosexuality onto all people. That's just a misguided and downright illogical assertion.

So I suggest that in future posts, the anti-homosexual proponents need to 1) explain what they mean by forcing something down one's throat, or 2) change the word choices they use to explain their opposition to homosexuality.
Hi sir,

Let me address your points. First I agree with you on the Middle East. I am no longer in favor of being the world's policeman. Nobody appreciates us anyways so I don't see any need to be there. Now if there is another 9/11 then we have a different story. A solider dying for his country is tragic and he will be remembered as a hero. What is also tragic is the 40+ million or the total casulaty rate of those people who were murdered before their lives were ended.

Second, I completely disagree with you that the liberals are not forcing homosexuality down our throat. Are you serious? That comment is so ridiculous that I'm not going to waste my time.

Here is what I want and that may explain what some of us believe more clearly. First if two homosexuals want to have a relationship with one another, I could care less. You do whatever you want behind closed doors and that's your business. However the minute the left tries to manipulate what marriage is, what it has always been, and starts referring to that type of lifestyle and living arrangement as "marriage" then I have a real problem with it. I wish I could elaborate more, but I would be receiving a violation so I will just have to keep my opinions to myself. Now if a MOD wants to allow me a lot of latitude here and promise not to issue me a violation under any circumstances as long as I'm not name-calling, then I'll be glad to explain...
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,722,995 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoDat2011 View Post
Hi sir,

Let me address your points. First I agree with you on the Middle East. I am no longer in favor of being the world's policeman. Nobody appreciates us anyways so I don't see any need to be there. Now if there is another 9/11 then we have a different story. A solider dying for his country is tragic and he will be remembered as a hero. What is also tragic is the 40+ million or the total casulaty rate of those people who were murdered before their lives were ended.

Second, I completely disagree with you that the liberals are not forcing homosexuality down our throat. Are you serious? That comment is so ridiculous that I'm not going to waste my time.

Here is what I want and that may explain what some of us believe more clearly. First if two homosexuals want to have a relationship with one another, I could care less. You do whatever you want behind closed doors and that's your business. However the minute the left tries to manipulate what marriage is, what it has always been, and starts referring to that type of lifestyle and living arrangement as "marriage" then I have a real problem with it. I wish I could elaborate more, but I would be receiving a violation so I will just have to keep my opinions to myself. Now if a MOD wants to allow me a lot of latitude here and promise not to issue me a violation under any circumstances as long as I'm not name-calling, then I'll be glad to explain...
I'm glad we reached agreement on something!

As for marriage--there's two different ways in which marriage functions in our society. On one level, marriage is a religious event and the various religions and denominations have their own rules regarding what constitutes a holy union of two people, man and wife. On another level, marriage in our society has a legal component to it that establishes kinship ties and secures the sharing of various rights based on this legal function. I believe proponents of same-sex marriages are merely trying to have their rights recognized through legalization.

Still, I don't understand how agitation for homosexual rights via the legalization of same-sex marriage is forcing anything down your throat. It doesn't mean that people are forced to marry or to not marry and it doesn't mean that yours or any other marriage has less significance. I think you're confusing the two ways in which marriage operates in our society. I think you're confusing the religious sacrament with the legal function, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Now about your statement that "the minute the left tries to manipulate what marriage is, what it has always been" is downright erroneous. It's a faulty statement on several levels.

First of all, heterosexuals have manipulated what marriage is, both legally speaking and from a religious standpoint. The acceptability of divorce among heterosexuals has manipulated the institution from being one that was "til death do us part" to one in which spouses can come and go freely (provided they can secure a legal divorce and recognition of their divorce from their religious authority). So the institution of marriage has changed and has done so greatly in just the past 70 years when divorce was a rare thing (once married always married) to today when divorce occurs at frequency rates as high as 60% of all marriages (once married...you can get out of it). So marriage has largely become a temporary thing and it's good that it has--I'd hate to have seen what my parents would have done to each other if they could not have gotten a divorce.

Secondly, in biblical times, marriage occurred between one man and several or many women, polygyny. Similarly in native American societies, various nations practiced polyandry, in which a woman had more than one husband. In Europe during the middle ages, marriages among the elite ruling classes were considered to be inauthentic unless spouses were chosen in accordance with the rules of one's social group or standing--resulting in arranged marriages so a royal could increase one's holdings or as a form of alliance-building with neighboring societies.

Third, the idea of romantic love being the basis of marriage is a relatively modern one and one that's uniquely western for the most part. Most marriages in the past, and some today are like this to a certain degree or another, were entered into as a result of what one partner could do for another. For the most part, in the past people married so that they could produce offspring who would help them to care for the farm and was conducive to survival and longevity. Only with the advent of a modern consumer culture and industrialized society did people gain the leisure time to look for love when trying to settle on a wife or husband. Of course, the extension of women's legal rights in the West has also influenced the changes in the institution of marriage over the years. Before women had legal rights, husbands were considered to be "masters" of their wives and oftentimes ruled over them with strict discipline that included coerced sex, rape, and various other forms of sexual exploitation.

I'm afraid that you should revise your contention that marriage has always been the same because it has not. It has varied from culture to culture and from time period to time period. It's a little more realistic that as time moves forward that marriage will continue to change and evolve and maybe even disappear altogether.

I understand that a mod might not want you to say something or another--they have their jobs to do. If you care to you can PM me just for the sake of understanding one another. I promise I will not disclose any of your statements in public if you do so. I did previously on this thread relating to what MOS sent me via PM--but his statements were so nasty and so hateful, I felt I had to make a note to others interested that he could give a hoot about his religious tradition or morality. He's on here to voice his hatred for others and that's about it.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing why so many people believe that there's first a "homosexual agenda" and secondly that the "agenda" is being "forced down others' throats." I mean, a clear look at empirical facts would illustrate that this idea among marriage "traditionalists" that they're being put upon or discriminated against, or forced into something is really ridiculous. Heterosexuals account for the majority population and an overwhelming number of marriages in this country are entered into by heterosexual couples (probably because they enter into and get out of marriage so frequently). Heterosexuals have written most of the marriage laws in this country. Heterosexuals, and the ones opposes to same-sex marriages, have the power in this fight and it's just a ludicrous assertion or implication that heterosexuals or marriage traditionalists lack power. Moreover, the marriage traditionalists control most religious denominations in this country and that's further evidence that nothing's being forced down anyone's throat because the same-sex marriage proponents have virtually no power. They don't have political power to the extent that marriage traditionalists do and they don't have power over the clergy like marriage traditionalists do.

Last edited by DiogenesofJackson; 07-15-2012 at 02:43 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-15-2012, 03:13 PM
 
270 posts, read 555,690 times
Reputation: 150
Hi,
To answer you first question, let me extend some background information about myself. I am an evangelical Christian first and foremost, and a conservative politically leaning person second (but I do not like Wall-StreetJ ). Now with that kind of understanding in mind, you probably have an idea of why I have my set of beliefs that I do. With that understanding you can understand why I believe marriage is between one man and one woman. The law was given to us by God. If God says marriage is between one man and one woman, then as someone who loves God, I’m going to abide by his rules. What I believe politically has no relevance here.

Regarding the homosexuals, I have no agitation for them. It’s not my place to judge them. What I do have a problem with is the political left making homosexuality seem, well …. Again, I am not limited to elaborate until a MOD will gives me a lot of latitude here to speak openly and honestly.

Now we have all seen the statistics on the divorce rate among “Christians”. What many fail to realize is that the divorce rate among serious Christians who take God’s word seriously is much less than non-committed Christians.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/abou...the-world.aspx

Therefore my ultimate argument on why marriage is between one man and one woman is more spiritual than political. And to your point I was wrong on my statement that marriage has always been between one man and one woman. You are correct that in the Old Testament days polygamy was a common practice. I still don’t know when that changed but that practice was not in effect in the New Testament.

So with that being said, I take the literal Biblical belief not just on homosexuality, but on everything.
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:08 PM
 
Location: PNW, CPSouth, JacksonHole, Southampton
3,539 posts, read 5,122,185 times
Reputation: 13910
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiogenesofJackson View Post
What a sick world we live in where the United States has to send folks to Afghanistan, Iraq to take the lives of other human beings--I think you lose points on consistency when you make blanket statements like the very first one in the quoted section above.

No one has answered one of my initial questions on this thread: how is anybody forcing anything down anyone's throats? Whodat and others consistently state that they are opposed to homosexuality and homosexual marriages and homosexual unions--so obviously nothing has been forced down their throats.

Whodat claims that if they don't accept the so-called homosexual agenda, then he and others with the same beliefs will be considered hateful and repugnant--but that's not evidence of forcing anything down one's throat because whodat is free to associate with others who believe as he does--that homosexuality is some perverse and sinful act.

So the terms "force" in this context are entirely misplaced. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. The way anti-homosexuality people frame their opinions makes it seem as if some homosexual is trying to force his lifestyle onto you--that is he/she is trying to make you become a homosexual--and this is not the case at all. Homosexuals merely want to live life free of discrimination and to take advantage of all the privileges and guarantees of being an American citizen and living in a free society. That's all they want, but the religionists on this thread seem to equate homosexuals' appeals for full citizenship to be this unholy specter of forcing homosexuality onto all people. That's just a misguided and downright illogical assertion.

So I suggest that in future posts, the anti-homosexual proponents need to 1) explain what they mean by forcing something down one's throat, or 2) change the word choices they use to explain their opposition to homosexuality.
Amen, Amen, Amen. - YouTube

(I think this puts me in your Amen Corner, Diogenes)
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, MD
3,237 posts, read 3,733,271 times
Reputation: 3010
It's a shame whiny old fossils have nothing better to do than bully gay people and whine and demand government intervention into people's personal lives. Grow up and get a life.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:54 PM
 
270 posts, read 555,690 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhenomenalAJ View Post
It's a shame whiny old fossils have nothing better to do than bully gay people and whine and demand government intervention into people's personal lives. Grow up and get a life.
Silly liberals are an interesing folk. They stand firm for the sinful homosexual behavior, yet they advocate the murder of innocent babies... Hmm.
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, MD
3,237 posts, read 3,733,271 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoDat2011 View Post
Silly liberals are an interesing folk. They stand firm for the sinful homosexual behavior, yet they advocate the murder of innocent babies... Hmm.
...You don't even know how to live life or have an independent thought without a 2000 year old book telling you what to think and do so I'm not sure you're the best arbiter of what's right
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:19 AM
 
833 posts, read 1,640,485 times
Reputation: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhenomenalAJ View Post
...You don't even know how to live life or have an independent thought without a 2000 year old book telling you what to think and do so I'm not sure you're the best arbiter of what's right
I don't need a bible to tell me abortion and homosexual acts are wrong.
I would feel that way even if I were an atheist.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Denver
15,827 posts, read 23,899,266 times
Reputation: 11847
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoDat2011 View Post
I really respect Moe's opinions. He is not saying anything that really isn't true. Yes the left is shoving homosexuality down our throats. If we don't agree with the lifestyle then we are considered hateful and close-minded. It's so obvious that sex is pervasive and I was guilty for years where my #1 priority in life was sex, sex, sex. I've since because a Christian but my former lifestyle still causes me to struggle from time to time. While I don't believe that most people will support a moral dating code where they promise not to have sex with one another, I certainly believe it's a terrible idea for dating partners to move into together before marriage.
Shoving it down your throat? And is religion not being shoved down their throats? They just want to be normal without being frowned upon by the "Christians" we speak of. Which is hateful and close-minded.
Would you abandon your child if they were homosexual?
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
41 posts, read 103,878 times
Reputation: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_himself View Post
Shoving it down your throat? And is religion not being shoved down their throats? They just want to be normal without being frowned upon by the "Christians" we speak of. Which is hateful and close-minded.
Would you abandon your child if they were homosexual?
I'm guessing the response will be something like this:

"Homosexuality is a choice and no child of mine would choose to live his/her life in such a manner that contradicts the Word of God."
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