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Old 05-08-2021, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
7,634 posts, read 4,976,822 times
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It's a testament to how far we have come in a fairly short time. Recall that in 2001 there was a flag referendum in MS and it failed by 2-1.

For those of you that think people "don't care" - you must not have gone to any of the flag townhalls in 2000-01. This podcast puts the thing in perspective: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts.../flag-and-fury Here's a clip from the transcipt, a recording of one of the townhalls:

Quote:
[ARCHIVE CLIP, man: You white people don’t get it!]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, man: This is the year 2000! We will not go back. We will not go back. That must flag must be changed. I’ve lived all over the country. We are the laughing stock of America. That flag represents Mississippi being 50 in education. 50 in per-capita income. Number one in infant mortality. Number one in lynching. We cannot afford to keep that flag. We must move forward!]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, man: This flag is just like my wife. You mess with my wife, you'll get your ass kicked! That’s all there is to it.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, man: Our state flag -- you listen up. You listenin' over there? Our state flag represents blood, sweat and tears of countless Southerners who are a far sight better than any of y'all. Now listen, Mr. Winter?]

SHIMA: Mr. Winter was the head of the flag commission, former governor. He was in the room.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, man: You are despicable. You are an anathema. You are an anathema to what is honorable in this state!]

[CHEERING]
Granted, the 2020 "New Magnolia" flag is a lot prettier than the 2001 proposal.

Last edited by redguard57; 05-09-2021 at 12:00 AM..
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
7,634 posts, read 4,976,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
What about things like civil war reenactments, or just a display of civil war history in general?

The only such place I've been to is Harpers Ferry in WV, so not the deep south.

I just hope the new generation doesn't try to forget civil war history and the general iconography associated with it.
They won't.

Believe me, the Civil War is not going to be de-emphasized in history education. If anything it will be emphasized more, since it can be looked at as a war for liberation from the African American perspective. If you read Ta Nehisi Coates, he became a civil war buff and dragged his kids kicking and screaming to a bunch of the battlefield sites. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...il-war/308831/

Will the iconography, what some might call the "totems of slavery," - most of which come from many years AFTER the civil war - lose some of its cultural cache? Probably. I'm not a big fan of venerating generals anyway. Why do we need statues of Robert E. Lee or Nathan Bedford Forrest? To quote Yoda, "Wars not make one great." I felt the same way about statues of Civil War generals as when I went to Europe and saw statues of generals like Joseph Joffre. That man does not deserve a statue, and a memorial to him does not teach anyone anything worthwhile about World War I. I've thought for years, after visiting many many historical sites, that the memorials I get the most out of are not portraits, but more artistic expressions.

Think about how tacky the Vietnam Veterans Memorial would be if it were an image of William Westmoreland, and how much more powerful it is as black stone panels with names. Familes of one of the fallen can go touch the name. If it was a photo-realistic statue of some general, no one would feel moved to touch it.

Last edited by redguard57; 05-09-2021 at 12:46 AM..
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:29 AM
 
14,310 posts, read 20,683,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
It's a testament to how far we have come in a fairly short time. Recall that in 2001 there was a flag referendum in MS and it failed by 2-1.

For those of you that think people "don't care" - you must not have gone to any of the flag townhalls in 2000-01.
The 2001 vote was different however - it gave the choice between the then flag composed of the battle flag vs. a new design. This is perhaps what out of state people don't get: In 2020 MS politicians made that decision already before the vote - the battle flag would be removed. Case Closed. End of that story. It was not a part of the November vote at all. This most recent vote was simply "hey do you like the magnolia flag or not".
In a manner of speaking - the results of the 2001 and 2020 election were the same - keep the current status quo - voters simply said "yeah the current flag design is fine".
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:51 AM
 
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The 2001 flag looked terrible, so people just stuck with the old one. The 2020 flag also looks terrible, but there wasn't a competing option. In my opinion, most people thought it's just a state flag (and not a state flag many gravitated to like TX, SC, CA), let's move on.
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Old 05-09-2021, 09:39 AM
 
14,310 posts, read 20,683,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viverlibre View Post
The 2001 flag looked terrible, so people just stuck with the old one. The 2020 flag also looks terrible, but there wasn't a competing option. In my opinion, most people thought it's just a state flag (and not a state flag many gravitated to like TX, SC, CA), let's move on.
Exactly, the vote/referendum in 2020 wasn't really a choice at all. It was "hey go with this design or it's back to the drawing board for a new design" and I guess a new vote. The design discussion could have gone on indefinitely. Who wants that? Time to move on...
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Old 05-09-2021, 03:57 PM
 
3,209 posts, read 4,628,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post

I'm a northerner from Chicago (of all places) of southern heritage, and I'm descended from a Confederate veteran who has a fairly illustrious story. I'm not sympathetic with the cause of slavery. But, I am very sympathetic to him as a human and don't see why we shouldn't be able to memorialize veterans of the Civil War without endorsing slavery.
Thank you for expressing my view !
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Old 05-09-2021, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
12,383 posts, read 8,809,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
It's a testament to how far we have come in a fairly short time. Recall that in 2001 there was a flag referendum in MS and it failed by 2-1.

For those of you that think people "don't care" - you must not have gone to any of the flag townhalls in 2000-01. This podcast puts the thing in perspective: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts.../flag-and-fury Here's a clip from the transcipt, a recording of one of the townhalls:



Granted, the 2020 "New Magnolia" flag is a lot prettier than the 2001 proposal.
I was in Mississippi the week of the 2001 referendum and traveled to several locations in the state. As a result of the travel I listened to a lot of talk radio. I think it gave me some perspective of what it must have been like in the 1960s in Mississippi.
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
7,634 posts, read 4,976,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
The 2001 vote was different however - it gave the choice between the then flag composed of the battle flag vs. a new design. This is perhaps what out of state people don't get: In 2020 MS politicians made that decision already before the vote - the battle flag would be removed. Case Closed. End of that story. It was not a part of the November vote at all. This most recent vote was simply "hey do you like the magnolia flag or not".
In a manner of speaking - the results of the 2001 and 2020 election were the same - keep the current status quo - voters simply said "yeah the current flag design is fine".
I suspect they didn't want to hear the public's opinion again based on William Winter's experience. Quite possibly the battle flag insignia could have remained, although probably a closer vote.

And honestly it's the state government's prerogative. They don't need to ask the public's opinion on a thing like this. The legislature chooses all the state symbols, state bird , state flower, etc... so they can choose this too. Hopefully there is not a referendum to put it back.

Last edited by redguard57; 05-09-2021 at 06:14 PM..
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
71 posts, read 16,833 times
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I've always enjoyed cruising through Mississippi's back roads on road trips and find it a fairly pleasant place to visit most of the time. Their old flag was in definite need of retiring and the new design is quite lovely. Frankly the south as a whole needs to divorce itself from the old stars and bars symbolism completely and leave the past where it belongs...or at least use the proper Confederate 'national' flag instead.
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Old 05-10-2021, 06:48 AM
 
14,310 posts, read 20,683,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I suspect they didn't want to hear the public's opinion again based on William Winter's experience. Quite possibly the battle flag insignia could have remained, although probably a closer vote.
Nah there was already a mandate in the law that the battle flag be removed from any and all design choices. The Magnolia design was essentially chosen by a "commission", obviously because it's simple design offended the least amount of people. The most controversial thing was the "in God we trust" logo.
I like the mosquito flag myself.
But agree, why even put it to a vote when there really was no choice? It was simply the governor in CYA mode.


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