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View Poll Results: Would you move out of Mississippi ?
Yes 172 67.45%
No 58 22.75%
Maybe 25 9.80%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-27-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Central Mississippi
356 posts, read 1,347,521 times
Reputation: 210
I never realized all those years ago that my Mississippi grandmother was insulting me when she said "bless your heart". Come to think of it, my South Carolina grandmother said it too.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:12 AM
 
Location: PNW, CPSouth, JacksonHole, Southampton
3,736 posts, read 5,791,384 times
Reputation: 15134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post
Not to rain on your pity party, but the urns that were removed from the CVS were made of stirofoam and textured paint. Not only were they cheap, but the scale and proportions were so far off that no amount of adjustment would have made a significant amount of improvement. Even the facade elements that remained are way off - not to mention that the CVS doesn't even relate to Hwy 51 (which is suppose to be Madison's main street, yet the town seems confused on what area should become the future "downtown"). There's not a single window facing "main street" and the only door is an emergency exit only. WTF? Even 1st year architecture students can grasp the concept of a corner store and how it relates to the surrounding context. This small, distateful piece of chain store "architecture" in a town with less than 20k people is about as significant as the Starbucks that closed down just a mile down the road. CVS sells drugs and everyday things, people are going to go there to buy these things - regardless if there are 8' tall urns on the roof or not.

Can you honestly say that the removal of hideously overscaled pieces of painted foam on top of a $4 million chain box store is what pushed you over the edge? If you're lucky, you may still be able to gather the crumbled foam that is scattered at the landfill - you could use it to pack your boxes.
It's not the loss of the (gorgeous) finials that pushed me out of this wretched state, but the spirit of the evil individuals who caused the destruction. As everyone I know has said, even if it were ugly, it's couldn't be any worse than virtually everything that's been built in this state in the last few decades. So why pick on this one?

As to the Starbucks, they closed the Madison branch because they were closing all the stores in that group. Madison's had the highest sales in the group, BTW. It would have stood on it's own, but their distribution model is not set up that way.

And why would we want drugstore windows facing the highway? They never look good. Who wants to see inside a CVS? What's facing the highway is beautiful. I don't know if it "relates", but it's pretty to look at. I'm sure, though, that if you were inclined to send the city thirty for forty million dollars, to re-do the "cheap" materials in solid Marble (or maybe Travertine, like my new house has...We've already heard you dissing us, ad nauseum, for using brick...), they'd be amenable to an upgrade. Someone as smart as you are has got to be rich....right?

So you've been to the landfill? Trolling for treasures? Like maybe a few nine thousand dollar finials? And how do YOU know the columns are "incorrect"? They look fantastic, to me. What are you? Some bitter, washed-up architect, with nothing to do but attack other people's projects? So what, do they have little manuals to tell you what size columns to use?

But honestly, I should thank you. I still had lingering doubts as to the move. But you've just made me doubly glad I'm heading to the opposite corner of the continent.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Coast of MS
276 posts, read 1,143,684 times
Reputation: 122
I just want to say, I had never heard the term ad naseum until I took a science class and our teacher thought it would be nice to teach us more terms, one of those "the more you know" type things.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:44 AM
 
Location: PNW, CPSouth, JacksonHole, Southampton
3,736 posts, read 5,791,384 times
Reputation: 15134
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntbee View Post
I never realized all those years ago that my Mississippi grandmother was insulting me when she said "bless your heart". Come to think of it, my South Carolina grandmother said it too.
Thank you, Aunt Bee. That makes me feel better. Ever since a prominent Jackson socialite/intellectual explained that usage to me, I've been going back, in my memory, to all the times I've heard the phrase used.

About half the times, I'm sure that condescension and ridicule were intended. The other times, I'm not sure. Maybe this is a phrase whose meaning depends on what's in the speaker's heart.
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Jackson, MS
1,008 posts, read 3,396,109 times
Reputation: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandviewGloria View Post
It's not the loss of the (gorgeous) finials that pushed me out of this wretched state, but the spirit of the evil individuals who caused the destruction. As everyone I know has said, even if it were ugly, it's couldn't be any worse than virtually everything that's been built in this state in the last few decades. So why pick on this one?

As to the Starbucks, they closed the Madison branch because they were closing all the stores in that group. Madison's had the highest sales in the group, BTW. It would have stood on it's own, but their distribution model is not set up that way.

And why would we want drugstore windows facing the highway? They never look good. Who wants to see inside a CVS? What's facing the highway is beautiful. I don't know if it "relates", but it's pretty to look at. I'm sure, though, that if you were inclined to send the city thirty for forty million dollars, to re-do the "cheap" materials in solid Marble (or maybe Travertine, like my new house has...We've already heard you dissing us, ad nauseum, for using brick...), they'd be amenable to an upgrade. Someone as smart as you are has got to be rich....right?

So you've been to the landfill? Trolling for treasures? Like maybe a few nine thousand dollar finials? And how do YOU know the columns are "incorrect"? They look fantastic, to me. What are you? Some bitter, washed-up architect, with nothing to do but attack other people's projects? So what, do they have little manuals to tell you what size columns to use?

But honestly, I should thank you. I still had lingering doubts as to the move. But you've just made me doubly glad I'm heading to the opposite corner of the continent.
Either you have very few friends or they are imaginary, because I have heard and overheard at least 20 discussions regarding the urns/finials and not a single one was in favor of the over-scaled ornaments. There is good architecture to be found in Mississippi (and every state for that matter) but you would be hard pressed to find any of it in Madison. I would not be surprised if Madison became the future Disneyworld - at least then all the hideous architectural "elements" would serve some sort of purpose.

As for Starbuck's, I could care less about it closing, opening, the brand, etc. What is sad is that Madison is home to one of the best coffee brands in the nation - Seattle Drip - yet the mayor has never said a word about them, because she only cares about the #1 corporate brands like Starbuck's, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, CVS, Walgreen's, etc. If the leaders of Madison were smart, they would be busting their butts to promote successful local companies like Seattle Drip. At least then, 40-50% of the money spent with locally owned businesses would stay in the community, whereas with chain stores you're lucky to get 10-15%.

If you want a lesson on architecturally accurate column sizing, spacing, dimensions, etc, then go to any library and pick up a book. It's all there for you to digest, and there's plenty of literature and illustrations to learn from. For instance, there is a difference between the Greek orders of architecture and the Roman orders of architecture. The proportions also differ between Greek Doric, Tuscan, Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian. For each order, the pedestal (consisting of the base, die and cap), the column (consisting of the bottom shaft, top shaft and capital), and the entablature (consiting of the architrave, frieze and cornice) are all specific to one another. There are some buildings in Madison that try to hold true to the proper proportions of the orders, but the design of the CVS has failed.

As for your departure from Mississippi, all I have to say is "Bless your heart." Oh, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:04 PM
 
Location: PNW, CPSouth, JacksonHole, Southampton
3,736 posts, read 5,791,384 times
Reputation: 15134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post
Either you have very few friends or they are imaginary, because I have heard and overheard at least 20 discussions regarding the urns/finials and not a single one was in favor of the over-scaled ornaments. There is good architecture to be found in Mississippi (and every state for that matter) but you would be hard pressed to find any of it in Madison. I would not be surprised if Madison became the future Disneyworld - at least then all the hideous architectural "elements" would serve some sort of purpose.

As for Starbuck's, I could care less about it closing, opening, the brand, etc. What is sad is that Madison is home to one of the best coffee brands in the nation - Seattle Drip - yet the mayor has never said a word about them, because she only cares about the #1 corporate brands like Starbuck's, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, CVS, Walgreen's, etc. If the leaders of Madison were smart, they would be busting their butts to promote successful local companies like Seattle Drip. At least then, 40-50% of the money spent with locally owned businesses would stay in the community, whereas with chain stores you're lucky to get 10-15%.

If you want a lesson on architecturally accurate column sizing, spacing, dimensions, etc, then go to any library and pick up a book. It's all there for you to digest, and there's plenty of literature and illustrations to learn from. For instance, there is a difference between the Greek orders of architecture and the Roman orders of architecture. The proportions also differ between Greek Doric, Tuscan, Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian. For each order, the pedestal (consisting of the base, die and cap), the column (consisting of the bottom shaft, top shaft and capital), and the entablature (consiting of the architrave, frieze and cornice) are all specific to one another. There are some buildings in Madison that try to hold true to the proper proportions of the orders, but the design of the CVS has failed.

As for your departure from Mississippi, all I have to say is "Bless your heart." Oh, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Like I said, I'm sure that if you'd like to cut a check for a couple hundred million, to hire "correct" architects, instead of the chain-store architects that the chain-stores used, and for construction with solid Marble or Limestone (brick seems to bother your refined sensibilities), then please do so.

But as for those of us who live in the real world, Madison is awfully nice. This is the poorest state in America, and retailers are not going to spend what they would in major markets. But still, our Mayor managed to get a look that is leagues ahead of what's being built at all the other Interstate nodes. And it was done with very little money. So come on, big boy, send 'em a check to bridge that gap between 'cost-effective' and 'ideal', and I'm sure your gift of a few hundred million will be put to good use.

Apparently, you have not been an investor in many retail developments, so I'll clue you in on something. Cities have limited ability to choose who will or won't build/locate there. The big boxes were coming to Madison, like it or not. Madison simply got them to do something better than they'd done before. I'm sure Madison wants all the best local businesses it can get. And I'm sure that as their leases in Jackson are up, they will end up in Madison.

And about that 'correct' malarkey: I googled around a bit this morning, and called my decorator and a couple of architects. Yes, there are standard forms of "The Orders" (mainly because some "expert" labeled them as such, and measured them, and wrote it all down in one of those sacred books you say I need to go read...it reminds me of men sitting around arguing Talmud or The Catechism...get a life...). But the big truth is that "Classicism" has been in a state of evolution and experimentation the whole time. Sometimes a new style is a "charming corruption". Sometimes it is a "highly evolved form of...". But the bottom line is that pretty is pretty. The CVS center is drop-dead-gorgeous, for a strip center in the middle of an asphalt parking lot, in the middle of the poorest state. That's the reality of the situation. That's the bag of lemons the developers were handed, and I think they made some damn good lemonade out of them. Instead of comparing it to some solid marble temple somewhere, built by slaves of some empire, with the spoils of conquest, maybe you should be comparing it to the CVS on Frontage Road, in Northeast Jackson. That's the baseline, here, not the "Parthenon".

But thank you for the "education". Now I know that the columns between my (doubtless "incorrect") living room and dining room are "French Ionic", made of Scagliola, and the gold on the bases and capitals is "Water-gilding". Maybe you can snicker at them on a home-tour, after we've gone for good. With as many people as the movers have in here today, that could be...like...tonight.

But then, snickering at other people's accomplishments and aspirations seems to be your greatest (and, perhaps, only) talent.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Jackson, MS
1,008 posts, read 3,396,109 times
Reputation: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandviewGloria View Post
And about that 'correct' malarkey: I googled around a bit this morning, and called my decorator and a couple of architects. Yes, there are standard forms of "The Orders" (mainly because some "expert" labeled them as such, and measured them, and wrote it all down in one of those sacred books you say I need to go read...it reminds me of men sitting around arguing Talmud or The Catechism...get a life...).
Who would have thought that I actually knew what I was talking about?

Oh, and the "expert" that the orders derived from was Vitruvius, an architect and writer of the first century which some refer to as the world's first known engineer. Leonardo da Vinci (surely you've heard of this "expert") would later create a drawing called Vitruvian Man which was derived from a passage about geometry and human proportions in Vitruvius's writings.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Jackson, MS
1,008 posts, read 3,396,109 times
Reputation: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandviewGloria View Post
Like I said, I'm sure that if you'd like to cut a check for a couple hundred million, to hire "correct" architects, instead of the chain-store architects that the chain-stores used, and for construction with solid Marble or Limestone (brick seems to bother your refined sensibilities), then please do so.

But as for those of us who live in the real world, Madison is awfully nice. This is the poorest state in America, and retailers are not going to spend what they would in major markets. But still, our Mayor managed to get a look that is leagues ahead of what's being built at all the other Interstate nodes. And it was done with very little money. So come on, big boy, send 'em a check to bridge that gap between 'cost-effective' and 'ideal', and I'm sure your gift of a few hundred million will be put to good use.
As for the style of Madison, to each their own.

But - and there's always a but - if you're going to try to follow a style that has been highly recorded throughout history, then I suggest you try to conform to that style's fundamentals unless you want it to look ridiculous.

It doesn't cost any more money (or very little if it does) to scale building elements accurately and proportionally.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
1,112 posts, read 2,588,784 times
Reputation: 1579
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandviewGloria View Post
Like I said, I'm sure that if you'd like to cut a check for a couple hundred million, to hire "correct" architects, instead of the chain-store architects that the chain-stores used, and for construction with solid Marble or Limestone (brick seems to bother your refined sensibilities), then please do so.

But as for those of us who live in the real world, Madison is awfully nice. This is the poorest state in America, and retailers are not going to spend what they would in major markets. But still, our Mayor managed to get a look that is leagues ahead of what's being built at all the other Interstate nodes. And it was done with very little money. So come on, big boy, send 'em a check to bridge that gap between 'cost-effective' and 'ideal', and I'm sure your gift of a few hundred million will be put to good use.

Apparently, you have not been an investor in many retail developments, so I'll clue you in on something. Cities have limited ability to choose who will or won't build/locate there. The big boxes were coming to Madison, like it or not. Madison simply got them to do something better than they'd done before. I'm sure Madison wants all the best local businesses it can get. And I'm sure that as their leases in Jackson are up, they will end up in Madison.

And about that 'correct' malarkey: I googled around a bit this morning, and called my decorator and a couple of architects. Yes, there are standard forms of "The Orders" (mainly because some "expert" labeled them as such, and measured them, and wrote it all down in one of those sacred books you say I need to go read...it reminds me of men sitting around arguing Talmud or The Catechism...get a life...). But the big truth is that "Classicism" has been in a state of evolution and experimentation the whole time. Sometimes a new style is a "charming corruption". Sometimes it is a "highly evolved form of...". But the bottom line is that pretty is pretty. The CVS center is drop-dead-gorgeous, for a strip center in the middle of an asphalt parking lot, in the middle of the poorest state. That's the reality of the situation. That's the bag of lemons the developers were handed, and I think they made some damn good lemonade out of them. Instead of comparing it to some solid marble temple somewhere, built by slaves of some empire, with the spoils of conquest, maybe you should be comparing it to the CVS on Frontage Road, in Northeast Jackson. That's the baseline, here, not the "Parthenon".

But thank you for the "education". Now I know that the columns between my (doubtless "incorrect") living room and dining room are "French Ionic", made of Scagliola, and the gold on the bases and capitals is "Water-gilding". Maybe you can snicker at them on a home-tour, after we've gone for good. With as many people as the movers have in here today, that could be...like...tonight.

But then, snickering at other people's accomplishments and aspirations seems to be your greatest (and, perhaps, only) talent.
Shame on those EVIL people for getting rid of the disproportionately huge styrofoam urns on top of the CVS Pharmacy. I'm outraged! I'm gonna move out of this horrible state too!

Last edited by jhadorn; 12-28-2009 at 01:33 PM..
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:56 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,941 times
Reputation: 11
I find it very interesting that it is so easy to talk about a state as being not in the 20th much less the 21st century. I was born and educated in Mississippi and proud of it. I have traveled all over the world and never have I found anywhere anybetter. There are many first in MS which are not widely or publicly known. I found that it was much easier to keep shut and just listen because you cannot change someones mind that is already made up negatively and needs to look down on another location to justify moving to another location and try to say it is better. Most people would be surprised to learn the number of people who are running things in other parts of the United States who were educated in MS.
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