U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Montana > Missoula
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-02-2011, 10:30 PM
Status: "Truth prevails" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
13,121 posts, read 16,589,421 times
Reputation: 13690

Advertisements

My wife works with special needs students in Helena. They (thank-goodness) have enough para's to assist the teachers and help the class perform more smoothly.

It is important (as a society) to teach students at all levels of capability in an effort to better them, which in turn betters us. That's what a society does.. It's not forget them, I'll worry about mine in the USA. Public education was non-existent until after Jefferson, and this country really took off when it became a public priority. Now we seem inclined to tear that institution to the ground, almost for pure froth factor.

Education has been such a nasty, brought down to the gutter fight.. Some folks want to unfund the public sector. I'm really perplexed as to why.. It's not perfect by any means, but if we don't have a good system in place, than what good will this country be?

Education professionals are the most underpaid and overtaxed of the educated professions, by far.. We could use a good DOSE of 1950's policy where the bad seed kids are sent to Boys Village, the smart kids are tracked up and out, everyone get's a decent education and the special needs kids aren't relegated to the attic.

/end rant/
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-02-2011, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
2,309 posts, read 3,522,073 times
Reputation: 4975
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun View Post
.................... We could use a good DOSE of 1950's policy where the bad seed kids are sent to Boys Village, the smart kids are tracked up and out, everyone get's a decent education and the special needs kids aren't relegated to the attic.

/end rant/
Agreed, 110%.

I graduated grade school in 1946 (Catholic school taught by "Sisters Of Mercy" . (Believe me, the "Order" name was the greatest "mis-nomer" ever uttered!!) Sure we had some un-ruley and smart-a$$ kids, but rest assurred, they "got-wacked", spanked, sent home etc, etc and 99.9% of the parents were in 100% sgreement with how the nuns handled these situations. Without question, IMHO, I received a "better overall education" in those 8 years because part of my "every-day-learning"
included: respect for adults and authority; sharing; consideration of others; respect for other kid's opinions and other basic fundamental principals that helped form a "well-rounded young student" and preparred him/her to a greater degree for the transition into high school. If most of today's teachers (and going back for 25 yrs) were allowed to employee some of the "time-proven" "correctional-practices" that my era experienced..........we would have a vastly different "type-of parent" today.......and obviously a different "type-of-student" as well. Yea, I'm "old-fashioned as hell", but I think it's obvious that "those old-fashioned-ways" produced some pretty great adults..........OK, I'm off my soap-box now
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2011, 11:52 PM
GLS
 
1,985 posts, read 4,961,984 times
Reputation: 2436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Griz View Post
Agreed, 110%.

I graduated grade school in 1946 (Catholic school taught by "Sisters Of Mercy" . (Believe me, the "Order" name was the greatest "mis-nomer" ever uttered!!) Sure we had some un-ruley and smart-a$$ kids, but rest assurred, they "got-wacked", spanked, sent home etc, etc and 99.9% of the parents were in 100% sgreement with how the nuns handled these situations. Without question, IMHO, I received a "better overall education" in those 8 years because part of my "every-day-learning"
included: respect for adults and authority; sharing; consideration of others; respect for other kid's opinions and other basic fundamental principals that helped form a "well-rounded young student" and preparred him/her to a greater degree for the transition into high school. If most of today's teachers (and going back for 25 yrs) were allowed to employee some of the "time-proven" "correctional-practices" that my era experienced..........we would have a vastly different "type-of parent" today.......and obviously a different "type-of-student" as well. Yea, I'm "old-fashioned as hell", but I think it's obvious that "those old-fashioned-ways" produced some pretty great adults..........OK, I'm off my soap-box now
Your "soap-box" was built on a sturdy foundation. Too bad "common sense" and "common courtesy" are not mandatory classes in the curriculum. Unfortunately, these terms are oxymorons in today's educational system.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2011, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,750 posts, read 13,153,854 times
Reputation: 3236
Re Threerun's point -- used to be the "special needs" kids got institutionalized, so they weren't around to disrupt classes; now they're forced into regular school, and regular school is forced to accept them. While this may be more egalitarian, it's probably not doing those kids any favors, and it's sure not helping the rest of the kids.

You can't force the system to adapt to every outlier, not without disrupting it for the majority, and it sounds like that's exactly what's happening with today's "special needs" kids.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2011, 07:36 AM
 
9,341 posts, read 26,361,679 times
Reputation: 4513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun View Post
Public education was non-existent until after Jefferson, and this country really took off when it became a public priority.
According to The Origins of the Public Schooll, gov't schools became a priority in order to Protestantize the Irish Catholic immigrant, and are now maintained for the benefit of the teachers' unions, not the children.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2011, 07:38 AM
 
213 posts, read 620,465 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Re Threerun's point -- used to be the "special needs" kids got institutionalized, so they weren't around to disrupt classes; now they're forced into regular school, and regular school is forced to accept them. While this may be more egalitarian, it's probably not doing those kids any favors, and it's sure not helping the rest of the kids.

You can't force the system to adapt to every outlier, not without disrupting it for the majority, and it sounds like that's exactly what's happening with today's "special needs" kids.
Big overgeneralization here. You're equating "special needs" kids as disruptive. I'll agree that some are, but there are plenty of kids who have no "special need" whatsoever who are also disrespectful and disruptive. It's unfair to lump the two together.

Another thing that has changed is that more kids are being recognized as special needs, and this is a good thing. Kids that once would have simply been labeled "lazy underacheivers" are often found to have some kind of learning disability and with a little help, they can reach their full potential. These are the kids that fall through the cracks in the underfunded educational systems like Montana, because their needs aren't blatantly obvious.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,750 posts, read 13,153,854 times
Reputation: 3236
And I still hold that lumping them all into the same classroom in the name of egalitarianism is the principle mistake. Then you need an extra pair of hands for each and every classroom, rather than maybe 2 or 3 extra teachers for 2 or 3 different basic types of "special needs" kids, and possibly one para apiece for those 2 or 3 special classrooms. So in fact this is causing a need for extra funding that didn't previously exist, while damaging education for everyone.

When I was at Great Falls HS (I graduated in 1972), there were classes specifically geared for the "slow" students in math and English, the two areas where such kids tended to fall behind. This required exactly one extra teacher in each area, NOT a para in each and every classroom. Furthermore, out of a class of 560 or so, there were exactly TWO dropouts**, and GFHS was among the top-ranked schools nationally for overall academic performance. I don't think you can claim that system was failing the kids.

** One had been a loser her entire life (I'd known her since 5th grade), and the other was a recent transplant from out of state and had, shall we say, a lacking attitude toward school... she basically came there looking to get laid.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2011, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,750 posts, read 13,153,854 times
Reputation: 3236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
According to The Origins of the Public Schooll, gov't schools became a priority in order to Protestantize the Irish Catholic immigrant, and are now maintained for the benefit of the teachers' unions, not the children.
I think this article forgets that prior to generalized public schools, if you wanted an education your only real choice was the nearest monastery or nunnery. Public education as we know it didn't exist before about 1850. Neither did general literacy. It used to be a big deal for these remote farm and ranch areas (like Montana) to acquire and fund a teacher, who might have to use someone's front room for a schoolhouse, there being no other.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2011, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,750 posts, read 13,153,854 times
Reputation: 3236
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo403 View Post
Big overgeneralization here. You're equating "special needs" kids as disruptive. I'll agree that some are, but there are plenty of kids who have no "special need" whatsoever who are also disrespectful and disruptive. It's unfair to lump the two together.
Disruptive doesn't need to be throwing a tantrum from frustration, or just being in need of a good paddling. It can also be holding back the entire class while one student figures out the subject... that disrupts education just as surely, if not more so. I've heard quite a lot of complaining from teachers about that -- they're required now to ensure that the slowest students (for whatever reason) DO succeed, which in turn enforces neglect of the majority since it's the special-needs kid that will take extra time to teach, and there's only so many hours in the school day.

So... do you fund a para in every classroom, or do you give the special-needs kids a special-needs teacher all their own? Sometimes segregation has a valid function, it's not just because someone is "different", and I think this is a practical use of it. But it's now politically incorrect to recognise this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2011, 10:27 AM
Status: "Truth prevails" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
13,121 posts, read 16,589,421 times
Reputation: 13690
There generally is a para in every classroom (here) that assists. While I don't believe that a class should be 'held back' becuase of students involved in inclusion, I do believe it is a good thing that some form of inclusion exists as well as seperate, specialized education/workforce training for those that need it.

I think it's a good thing that a student body be aware of and associate with all facets of society where possible, and I also think it's important for special needs kids to learn to work with others as well.

I have a good friend that started a business manufacturing heavy equipment locks back in WV. A large part of the process is assembly of components that didn't lend itself well to mechanization. This guy was deeply involved with special needs kids as a volunteer and wound up hiring about 10 folks, f/t to handle this aspect of his operation (mostly autistic adults)

It was absoltely amazing to see how motivated and dedicated these folks were. They loved coming to work, they were totally focused and they were a pleasure to be around.

Maybe there's a lot to learn from them too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Montana > Missoula
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top