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Old 10-25-2015, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Nashville
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I am thinking of possibly relocating to Missoula now, because I would like to escape Seattle and move to a smaller nicer place and have always admired Montana. Sadly, I find that outside of Missoula there is very few rentals available this time of a year, as places like Whitefish, Bozeman, etc are very expensive and almost all for the very wealthy or vacationers. It seems that Missoula has some fairly affordable places and being a college town with a bit of an economy there are quite a few rentals available that are not excessively expensive.

My question is that I am escaping Seattle for many reasons. The crime is one, as I just had my car broken into last night and had $600 of stuff stolen. Supposedly, I live in a safe, small suburb farther from the city, but a bunch of pros hit my whole town last night while are incompetent police force slept through the whole thing , probably . A town of 6,000 really? These criminals broke into cars that were locked and didn't even break windows, they were quite professional and in and out so dang quick.

Another major reason I want to leave Seattle is its ultra liberal, anti-freedom, pro-BIG government and gun hating attitudes. The nazi like King County government and other nazi like liberal countries here in Washington has shut down my local gun range and has already succeeded at having other gun ranges in the area shut down. Also, due to overcrowding and too many stupid people combined with liberal, gun hating politicians, all the local shooting spots in the mountains are getting shut down. The shooting ranges that are in operation, I could swear, are being run by hired anti-gun liberal government agents. THese ranges have so many restrictions and treat every member like a criminal. I've never encountered such hostility by gun range staff and excessive rules until I moved to the Puget Sound. Basically, you have no where you can shoot anymore . Despite people fighting for 2A rights and carrying holstered weapons, everyone says you cannot practice draw shoot, as its too dangerous.. Here's what I like to ask these morons, you think people should carry holstered guns, but then restrict them from practicing the discipline of drawing from a holster and then you think it is safe for them to carry holstered weapons in public? It seems like our government and many of the liberal minded people here have waged war against gun owners and have succeed at making shooting so expensive and hard you cannot do it anymore. Only option is to go to overcrowded, overpriced and dangerous, toxic indoor ranges which I hate.

Now, I see the terrorist/traitor Michael Bloomberg is trying to save Montana from all the bloodshed and him and htis terrorist group Mothers Demand ACtion are trying to push an illegal law that violates Montana state law to demand unconstitutional background checks for all gun transfers. It is the first step for their draconian gun control to pretty much eliminate guns from Missoula, but this is where they start. It seems these liberal groups feed and thrive off of liberal places. Of course, Missoula having so much bloodshed, unlike Bloomberg's New York or other safe liberal cities like Chicago or Newark, they are in dire need for more gun control. Bunch of rednecks with guns? Oh no.. Only Michael Bloomberg and NYPD can be trusted! BLLEEEEHHHH!!! Gestapo!

I am wondering how much of these anti-gun laws are being perpetrated by the East Coast/Californian outsiders and immigrants to the state versus native Montanans, whether they be red/blue on the voting card. I would have thought even Montanan liberals wouldn't be so naive to support these insane measures. First, they ban guns in Missoula. Then, what will stop Mothers Against Blacks or Mothers Against Jews from pushing their own personal laws in another city that violate fedreal and state law? You can see why I hate this nazi-like /above the law type of measures these groups seek to carry out. Violate one right, other rights will follow!

Now, as far as the other reasons leaving Seattle besides being Anti-Gun/Anti-Freedom and Radically Liberal, the place is getting way too crowded, the prices are skyrocketing and even though it is business friendly, more and more radicals are moving here demanding income taxes, wage controls, housing price controls, etc. Even though violent crime is low, burglaries and most thefts (non-violent) are Misdemeanors and the counties always side with the criminals rather than the victims.


What would people in Missoula think of a guy who is right-winger? Is there places to shoot guns in Missoula? How are gun owners treated there? Are most of the people radical liberals who treat anyone who has a religion, owns and carries guns , believes in lower taxes, etc as they are a demon? Or, are they truly LIVE AND LET LIVE and can accept you don't think like them or vote like them , but can live at peace with you? IN Seattle, you will be hated and despised by most for not supporting every liberal cause and if you own guns that means you are a child murderer to most of them.


Pardon me for being bitter.. I just want to get the hell out of Seattle and go somewhere I can breathe . Would I be utterly hated in Missoula? I am the kind of guy who doesn't care so much if you are liberal as long as you keep your laws off of my freedoms and don't attack me because I don't believe in your politics or I have a religion.


P.S.

Before anyone says please look at Coeur d'Alene, just know I did and the place has become G-d awfully expensive and Idaho has freakin high taxes!!!! Is Idaho suppose to be conservative? I looked at MOntana's taxes and the property prices in Missoula and its way more affordable and not nearly as heavily taxed as so-called "conservative" Idaho.

Also, Spokane's crime rate is through the roof and seems to have even surpassed Tacoma and I am actually at the point I just want to bail altogether from the criminal/methhead loving state of Washington. Also, the large influx of radical leftists and illegal foreign immigrants into Washington is causing this state to become the next California.


I am also considering Billings, but hear it is very, very cold and the not the nicest town with lot of fumes from oil plants, etc. Also, I love trees , mountains and hiking and don't want to live in an arid flat desert/grasslands. Bozeman was another place I was looking at , but its very expensive and almost nothing for rent. ALso, I hear it gets real cold in the winter and smokey in the summer.

Last edited by RotseCherut; 10-25-2015 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 10-27-2015, 12:04 AM
 
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Missoula is arguably the most liberal city in about a million square mile area west of Minneapolis, north of Denver and east of Seattle and San Francisco. If you pick it, of all places in the region, you may be setting yourself up to dislike / hate at least parts of its politics and social style. Maybe it could work if you focus on the things you like about it and try to ignore / live with the things you don't like, even though they matter to you. It isn't likely to change its orientation. Most people don't care to know other people's politics but they might care to avoid someone who rails against things that the majority of the community have pretty much settled and rails against things they knew they didn't agree with before they came there.

If you want a place more like the rest of Montana and not a junior version of Seattle in many ways, maybe consider Helena. Or live / work in Stevensville and just use Missoula for weekend activities.

If you pick Missoula and are a self-declared right winger, are you unconsciously voting for a liberal society because you like living it with the universities, fancy coffee shops, tech industry, etc. and also like railing against it?

Would you consider Provo Utah? If liberal society is so distasteful, it would align with your politics far, far more. So would Redding CA or Colorado Springs. Medford OR or Flagstaff AZ are more in the middle ground. Living in the woods east of Moscow ID might be worth another look.


Idaho's tax situation is a result of the state being run by and for business interests. Even though Idaho is conservative it still finds it necessary to spend for schools, roads, the justice system, etc. Somebody has to pay and big business would rather it be the wage earner / home owner / consumer than them. Liberal (WA) and moderate (MT) areas spend more but they also tend to make more of an effort to get business to pay a fair share.

Last edited by NW Crow; 10-27-2015 at 01:33 AM..
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Billings, MT
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Billings is nice, especially if you can find a place like we did, about 5 miles out of town.
There is an open shooting range on BLM land about 17 miles up Hwy 87 towards roundup. No officious range officers, and no rules, other than clean up your mess.
There is the Three Sights gun store/indoor shooting range in town. You can even rent a full-auto there if you desire to ripple off a few rounds.
There is the Billings rod and Gun club range. Membership is limited, but there are often one or two available. The price isn't TOO bad, I guess.
Actually, I can shoot small arms in my back yard. My neighbor shoots at geese off his deck. He even sights in his hunting rifle there.
I have never lived in Missoula, and don't much want to. As far as their damfool background check law, one reason it hasn't gone anywhere is that it would only apply to transfers WITHIN the city limits. All one has to do is drive OUT of the City, and you can sell or buy anything from anybody, just like the rest of the state! For a glimpse of the mentality of the city administration, just think about the fact that the Montana Attorney General has stated that the law would be unconstitutional at the State as well as the Federal level, but the City Attorney disagrees! No, I don't want to live there!
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Nashville
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Thanks for your guy's response..

Crow, let me make a few comments, I both agree and disagree with some of what you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow View Post
Missoula is arguably the most liberal city in about a million square mile area west of Minneapolis, north of Denver and east of Seattle and San Francisco. If you pick it, of all places in the region, you may be setting yourself up to dislike / hate at least parts of its politics and social style. Maybe it could work if you focus on the things you like about it and try to ignore / live with the things you don't like, even though they matter to you. It isn't likely to change its orientation. Most people don't care to know other people's politics but they might care to avoid someone who rails against things that the majority of the community have pretty much settled and rails against things they knew they didn't agree with before they came there.
Thanks for the heads up.. I thought maybe Missoula wasn't quite as liberal as other liberal cities being in Montana, but I guess I could be seriously wrong, as you are now enlightening me. Also, I thought maybe the liberals in Missoula were more like the liberals I knew growing up in Oregon. ALthough, they may have been hippies, many of them still were fairly right wing on issues. Many of the hippies I grew up with in Oregon were gun toting, didn't trust the authorities and like a lot of government intrusion, hunted and were fairly country like people. Some of them were even pretty racist, unlike myself, who never judged people merely by appearances. For example, if I was hanging out with Black or Mexican guys, many would chastise me and talk down on me. Although, black/Mexican hippies, like themselves, were considered acceptable. It was more of a cultural hatred rather than merely skin color. But still, by today's liberal standards, this would be considered racism. They were not particularly fond of the redneck crowd they lived among either, although I noticed a bit more intermixing between rednecks and hippies in Oregon. With all this being said, I did notice a nice co-existence between rednecks/loggers/blue-collar types and hippies in the Oregon I grew up in. Pre-2000s.

It seems though that Missoula has been more Californicated/East Coast transformed and the liberals there are more of the police state control state variety who think big government, heavy regulations and taxation as well as strict population control, trying to emulate 1950 Russian society is utopia. I was just reading a news article , how they claim Missoula people embrace BIG government. This is somewhat the anti-thesis of the liberals I knew growing up in Oregon. Although, many of them naively voted democrat, their mindset was anything of supportive of modern day liberalism. I'd say way more libertarian minded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow View Post
If you want a place more like the rest of Montana and not a junior version of Seattle in many ways, maybe consider Helena. Or live / work in Stevensville and just use Missoula for weekend activities.
I hate Seattle and do not want to move to Seattle junior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow View Post
If you pick Missoula and are a self-declared right winger, are you unconsciously voting for a liberal society because you like living it with the universities, fancy coffee shops, tech industry, etc. and also like railing against it?
I am not unconsciously doing anything. My conscious is very strong. I was not wanting to move to Missoula to have coffee shops or a university.. Tech industry?? They have a tech industry there? Do you realize I live in Seattle? If I wanted all that crap, why would I move to Missoula? I could just go back to my home state of Oregon or stay in Seattle. You seem to have my intentions all wrong.

In fact, it is not Missoula , the town, what is attracting me to the area, but rather all the mountains, outdoor activity, less crowds and that it is in the grand state of Montana! Yeah, I am kind of a health nut and wouldn't mind having some health food stores around, but I do order lot of health products online now. However, I don't even go to coffeeshops now and I hardly spend any time hanging out at the Unviersity of Washington or any of the universities around town. The liberal snobby college kids actually kind of get on my nerves around here. I miss the more laid-back and friendly college environment I had when I lived in Eugene. College students in Washington state are either very pretentious or very radical left wing having to defend some cause they generally know nothing about.

So, that being said, I was looking at Missoula, because I noticed they had a lot of rentals there that were not off the charts in price compared to Whitefish, Bozeman. Also, growing up in Oregon I really admired living in the forest and mountains. Living in a brushy and barren desert or prairie land like Billings would be a very hard adjustment for me. This is why I went stir crazy living in Boise, I just couldn't take the brownness and ugly desert terrain. Now, please explain to me how Missoula being liberal has made the area more scenic? I kind of believe that the scenery and outdoor recreation has nothing to do with the politics in Missoula. The outdoor recreation and scenery is my main reason for going there. Being in MOntana, I still feel more secure living there, since the state politics dictate the laws and freedoms you will have more than the politics of the particular town. Just look at California. Redding may be more right-wing than Missoula, but you only have a fraction of the freedoms and gazillion more taxes living in Redding. If the State of Jefferson (Northern Nothern California/Southern Oregon) ever becomes its own state or country, I will probably apply for citizenship and try to move down there .


Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow View Post
Would you consider Provo Utah? If liberal society is so distasteful, it would align with your politics far, far more.
So being a right-winger automatically makes me a Mormon? You do realize if you are not Mormon, that you will pretty much be an utter outcast in Provo , Utah!? I also vigilantly support the Seperation of Church and State. This will make me very despised by many Mormons who believe the LDS church should dictate the rules of the country. In fact, the state of Utah gives me a bad taste in my mouth, because I feel people's freedoms are being infringed by a somewhat theocratic state government. For example, you are not allowed to carry your gun in a religious institution. BY enforcing this unconstitutional law, they are in fact giving the church special powers and integrating it into our government, which violates our Constitution. I can believe a more libertarian minded right-winger like me will not have fun in Utah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow View Post
So would Redding CA or Colorado Springs. Medford OR or Flagstaff AZ are more in the middle ground. Living in the woods east of Moscow ID might be worth another look.
Redding? You seriously think I want to live in California, a place that bans guns and has the highest tax rate in the country? Colorado also is a police state and I don't want ot move to any state where I am automatically a criminal because I possess magazines over 15 rounds. Hickenpooper can kiss my behind and the other Colifornian politicians of that state.

I grew up in Ashland, Oregon, lived there many years and there is no way I am living in an ugly pit like Dreadford, OR (which we called Medford). Also, I left my home state of Oregon, because the taxes are so insanely high that a small business cannot survive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow View Post
Idaho's tax situation is a result of the state being run by and for business interests. Even though Idaho is conservative it still finds it necessary to spend for schools, roads, the justice system, etc. Somebody has to pay and big business would rather it be the wage earner / home owner / consumer than them. Liberal (WA) and moderate (MT) areas spend more but they also tend to make more of an effort to get business to pay a fair share.
Crow, I seriously think you have it backwards. In fact, one of the major complains about the state of Washington is the big corporate sharks thrive in this place, whereas the working class Joes struggle. In fact, businesses in Washington pay significantly less taxes than in Idaho. That may be a reason why Washington has one of the highest number of small business startups as well as large corporate entities in the country. Idaho is more of a resort state , where they attract a lot of older and wealthy retirees who don't have to work for a living. They use to have low property taxes to make up for the insanely high state and sales tax. They even tax food in Idaho! As much as I like Idaho as a state, I always jokingly refer to it as "Taxaho".

Also, Washington's low tax rates are a result of the libertarian/conservative government in the state which is much larger than you think. The liberals from California/East Coast have been fighting very hard to impose a veyr high state income tax and raise all the taxes across the board. However, the business muscle combined with the right-wing elements have kept taxes low in this state for now. I don't have a great outlook though.

Idaho's tax system does no favor for small businesses or even larger businesses. I have heard though that Idaho's labor laws suck and do allow for businesses that thrive on cheap labor to have less regulations. However, I think lower taxes will still trump less labor regulations when it comes to companies making a profit. Sure, places like burger joints that thrive on cheap labor may have a slight advantage in Idaho and fast food workers a slight disadvantage. However, a lot of jobs are held by illegals in Washington due to its high minimum wages, strict labor laws combined with lax regulations/sanctuary status for illegal migrant workers. The two work against each other.

Idaho's system of high taxation on businesses and lower property values/taxes seems to favor the low wage working class considerably. IT is people who make a lot of money in a business who will get hit hard in Idaho. This was the same dilemma in Oregon, except that Oregon has insanely high property values and taxes, but Idaho's properties are going up in value as all Californians are moving there. Which means Idaho is on its way of becoming like Oregon. Oregon has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country and was rated by Forbes as the worst place in the USA (next to Hawaii) to run a business.

I also believe financial mismanagement and bloated state bureaucracy is a major reason why state's may come up short for their budget requirements. If taxing to death people could make a state rich, California would not be our most bankrupt state in the country.


Montana's taxes are not low, but not as insane as Idaho.. I feel Idaho has a fiscally liberal government, like it's Oregon neighbor. Idaho and Oregon have a lot in common I have realized. However, Idaho has a socially conservative government. They will fight for your gun rights while bankrupting your business with excessive taxes. Montana seems a wee bit more truly conservative than Idaho.

Last edited by RotseCherut; 10-27-2015 at 06:22 PM..
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Nashville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
Billings is nice, especially if you can find a place like we did, about 5 miles out of town.
There is an open shooting range on BLM land about 17 miles up Hwy 87 towards roundup. No officious range officers, and no rules, other than clean up your mess.
There is the Three Sights gun store/indoor shooting range in town. You can even rent a full-auto there if you desire to ripple off a few rounds.
There is the Billings rod and Gun club range. Membership is limited, but there are often one or two available. The price isn't TOO bad, I guess.
Actually, I can shoot small arms in my back yard. My neighbor shoots at geese off his deck. He even sights in his hunting rifle there.
I have never lived in Missoula, and don't much want to. As far as their damfool background check law, one reason it hasn't gone anywhere is that it would only apply to transfers WITHIN the city limits. All one has to do is drive OUT of the City, and you can sell or buy anything from anybody, just like the rest of the state! For a glimpse of the mentality of the city administration, just think about the fact that the Montana Attorney General has stated that the law would be unconstitutional at the State as well as the Federal level, but the City Attorney disagrees! No, I don't want to live there!
Thanks for the information Redraven. After reading this thread I am seriously going to reconsider living in Missoula. I am trying to escape a radically left-wing communist/fascist type society, like here in Seattle. The last thing I want to do is be stuck in a remote area surrounded by more left-wing communist/fascists.


Billings does sound intriguing . I guess being a guy who grew up in the forests and mountains in Oregon, it may be hard for me to adjust being in a barren , dry and flat place like Billings. I do know there are some mountains a couple hours away, but I also hear they are not all that acessible most of the year due to snow, etc. However, having all the open spaces I can bet will mean lots of great places to shoot your guns. That is definitely a nice benefit to have. Finding a place to shoot here in the Puget Sound is a real chore and even the guys who run the gun ranges here can be anti-gun. Lot of ranges have funny gun control regulations, like round limits in your mags, no silhouettte targets, no conceal carry on the range and other BS.

I may consider Billings, although I am wondering if I can handle the extreme cold and the lack of trees and mountains around. That is what was attracting me to Missoula, the environment which reminds me a bit more of Oregon, where I grew up. I was told Kalispell is not the greatest or safest town to live, that is has crime issues. It also seems fairly isolated, although I really admired the scenery of the area. However, I cannot find anything for rentals in Kalispell, it seems very expensive and the places in my price range are old and dumpy. Missoula was actually cheaper than Kalispell, I have found.

How bad is the smell from the refineries in Billings? I was told Laurel ahs some serious fume problems.

Being that I need high speed cable internet because of my business, I probably won't be able to find any country property in Montana that will work for me. That sucks, because I want to live in the countryside.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:53 PM
 
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People may disagree on how liberal Missoula is, but I don't happen to think it is that difficult to sort out looking at its local, state and federal voting patterns and local government and non-profit activity. The disagreement may be based on whether one is looking / reading about its City Council (as I have for a long time in considering moving there) vs. others thinking about real people met there, though probably somewhat selectively filtered to match their own preferences. Not all the people are pure liberals by any means, but the City Council is about as progressive dominated as it gets and large majorities have tended to put them there. And even a slate of Green Party candidates not too long ago. But I have just been a visitor / curious researcher and if locals tell you it isn't as liberal as it looks and sounds maybe they are right. Maybe. Or maybe they just have made peace with it and might tolerate it more than perhaps you would. I am generally left of center but have paused over moving to Missoula because I thought it might be a bit more left of center politically and socially than I preferred ideally. I have yet to hear anyone not agree that it is the flat out, by far most liberal place in Montana. It isn't Seattle, Boulder or Berkeley. But in comparison with rest of state it is liberal in many ways. Too liberal or tolerable? If you try it, you will figure that out.

I would assume most of the low price rentals are in student areas. Downtown Missoula may feel a bit more liberal than city neighborhoods a bit further away from the university. A lot of how you react to Missoula will be determined by where you live / hangout vs. don't frequent much.

I am aware you live in Seattle metro now and aware that you have moved to several other high profile places that had universities, young people, downtown scene, tech industry and in most cases were left of center. I assume several of those places didn't work out for being too liberal and yet Missoula seems to be a similar thought. If those named amenities don't really matter much then you should have lots of alternatives more in line with your politics than Missoula, if politics has a lot of sway in your decision. Is a gun transfer law that is easy to avoid or shouldn't really be a problem to pass going to matter more than the desirable natural environment? Your call. Apparently a different, more annoying gun law is enough to rule out Colorado but maybe not Missoula?

Excellent scenery can make a place more liberal over time as liberals seem to value the natural environment more than many conservatives in the place choice equation that includes income prospects and other factors. That is what moved Bend, Bellingham, Missoula, Hood River, Ashland, Eugene and other places to their left of center or very left of center current orientation. You say it is a big part of why you left those places, only to pick another candidate that is more similar than different with regards to this trend.

Ok, skip Provo. It some ways it is Missoula like without the liberals and I was just noting that does exist. But few non-Mormons want to be a minority there. Redding is in CA and that I guess disqualifies it for you. It is about the most conservative / libertarian area in northern California though and many tens of thousands of conservatives / libertarians have made it work well enough for them to stay there. If not worth considering by you (my mistake), it might appeal to some others reading. Medford isn't for everybody either but some find it a tolerable compromise in a sea of places usually imperfect in one or more ways.

We disagree on perspective and details of Idaho's tax system but I am not going to debate that. You have lived there, I just looked into it based on it how it might might affect me if I moved there. Big business imo has dominated tax politics there. They brag about it in their recruiting pitches.

Kalispell, CDA, north of Spokane, Helena, Belgrade, etc. all seem like better fits. But you know all factors and weights for you. Rental markets may be tight / expensive in these places but it only takes one acceptable place to get in. Tons of people find such a place, perhaps using a property management firm or realtor to help them. Not everything is on Craigslist, especially in conservative and / or rural areas. much is the dominant culture worth? If is not worth $50-$100-$250 per month was all the fuss over politics and culture worth it?

Good luck with your choice.

Last edited by NW Crow; 10-27-2015 at 08:21 PM..
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Nashville
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I appreciate your well thought out response Crow.. Nobody can agree on everything, but you brought up some good points that are definitely worth me considering.
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:53 AM
 
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Some of my comments might have been a bit blunt or speculative but I knew you could handle it.

I stopped in this forum because I still consider Missoula. There is much about it that interests us both. If you try it, I'll hope to hear good news.
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
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Missoula, or Berkley North, is not a place a good conservative, gun packing, law abiding citizen would really find comfy.

Just as an example, aside from trying to get all firearm transactions in the city registered, they have also told their police force to ignore monor drug use.
Last year they had some sort of naked bike ride through town. Not sure why, but the last thing I would want is to be stuck in traffic following some guy's hairy butt through town.

They seem to really be trying to be the liberal capital of the intermountain west. I wouldn't live there on a bet, even though Frenchtown and some of the other outlying places are pretty nice.

Missoula may be nominally located in Montana, but that's where the similarity to any of the rest of the state stops.

Bozeman would probably be much more to your liking, especially Belgrade or Manhattan. Nice little communities, 8 and 15 miles from Bozeman respectively. Toston, about 5 miles from Manhattan has a great full service gun range. Nice country in the Gallatin Valley as well.

I don't mind Billings as a town, it isn't as desolate as you may think, and Red Lodge which is kind of a bedroom community for Billings is beautiful.

Good Luck
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
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Correction, the gun range is at Logan, not Toston.
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