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I have an older oak tree that has shed bark to the point that it is completely gone in areas lower on the tree. Now there are also ants in the tree and looks like wholes from wood peckers trying to get to the ants. Can you tell me if the ants are the problem or if something else is making the tree loose the bark? What can we do to save the tree?
I have an older oak tree that has shed bark to the point that it is completely gone in areas lower on the tree. Now there are also ants in the tree and looks like wholes from wood peckers trying to get to the ants. Can you tell me if the ants are the problem or if something else is making the tree loose the bark? What can we do to save the tree?
Good morning conannpet. I would call the Missouri Conservation Department and talk to them. They stay up on all tree diseases and should be able to tell you right off if you have a serious problem, or a tree that has just caught the sniffles.
I read where Tennessee is having a similar problem this year with older oaks, but in that case its called “Smooth Patch Disease of White Oak.” If this in your case, it is not deadly to the tree. Why is My Oak Tree Losing Bark?
I have a monster old oak that seems to do this every once in awhile, and never thought to ask. Dummy me, I just thought it was naturally shedding
In my opinion, and this is an opinion only, if you feel the ants are attracting the woodpeckers, you may want to eliminate the ants, since eliminating woodpeckers is illegal. You can try to scare them off but you can't legally kill a woodpecker. Ants are typically climbing up the base of the tree, unless they are crossing the branches from another tree, so ringing your tree base with a non toxic ant repellent or just get some poison and put the little buggers to rest should stop the food supply. I would be careful using certain poison's however, because if your tree is in distress, you'll want to baby it not shock it with a dose of ant killer poison. Ants typically don't like to cross powdery substances but putting that on a tree might be a task, so hopefully some other readers can share some idea's with you.
If you can eliminate the primary food source from the tree, you might want to supply an alternative food source as well. The woodpeckers in my area love sunflower seeds, and they are constantly at our feeders.
I personally don't mind the peckers in the trees - have never had one kill any of my bigger trees and they are fun to watch. It's the wood siding on the house that they love to drill into that aggravates me!
Good luck with your tree - and welcome to the forum.
I have an older oak tree that has shed bark to the point that it is completely gone in areas lower on the tree. Now there are also ants in the tree and looks like wholes from wood peckers trying to get to the ants. Can you tell me if the ants are the problem or if something else is making the tree loose the bark? What can we do to save the tree?
Well I actually have some experience in this, 30+ years to be exact if you are interested, and can tell you a few things:
Big old oak trees, or NATIVE trees in general succumb to "decline" over several years. They do not get cancer or heart disease or any one malady that a pathologist can point to. Instead they slowly DECLINE and their roots start to rot and they get weak, and they get internal trunk rot, which ants can take advantage of.
The ants are not really a problem at all, just a sign that the tree was rotting internally. The ants are just taking advantage of a food source in a weakened, declining tree. At the same time different fungus and pathogens are attacking the whole tree, weakening it on all fronts, making it more and more prone to all sorts of insects, attracting the woodpeckers. And yet the woodpeckers are not really the problem, (just a symptom the tree was weakened, susceptible to disease, and then insects, and ultimately woodpeckers).
But the real problem is the tree is just weak and dying. They usually collapse and die in July/Aug/Sept when we get into one of our summer drought periods. They succumb to lack of water because their root systems are dying/rotting off, which is what generally kills native oak trees.
Lots of generalization here, but many if not most trees just die of old age from a variety of cumulative maladies, and pushed over the edge by late summer drought. Kind of like old uncle Joe who had several serious health problems and hung on for years until the morning he did not wake up. Nobody gives that much of a thought, it was not that unexpected. Similarly trees do not live forever, and get old and weak and eventually cash it in.
Found this so interesting as we have a huge double oak just to the east of our house (very close - within 20 feet) that has been dropping branches, and this summer, dropping leaves. We did have severe drought June, July and August.
My next questions is - what should we do? Do we let the tree die a natural death, cutting a branch here or there or do we hire someone to come in and take it down?
The thought of our back yard without this venerable old "double" oak is heart breaking but the thought of it coming down on the house during a storm is frightening.
Found this so interesting as we have a huge double oak just to the east of our house (very close - within 20 feet) that has been dropping branches, and this summer, dropping leaves. We did have severe drought June, July and August.
My next questions is - what should we do? Do we let the tree die a natural death, cutting a branch here or there or do we hire someone to come in and take it down?
The thought of our back yard without this venerable old "double" oak is heart breaking but the thought of it coming down on the house during a storm is frightening.
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If the tree (or any tree in general) is exhibiting large dead branches toward the TOP of the crown that is a bad sign. Dead branch TIPS over the whole crown is equally bad.
Shedding smaller branches toward the bottom is often natural "self pruning", and not necessarily bad. Shedding of a moderate amount of leaves during drought is also not necessarily bad. It can be a healthy tree's way of conserving moisture.
Large branches dying after leafing out (called flagging) usually indicates the root system is starting to die back, and you are seeing the onset of the decline of the tree. Since the root system is shrinking it starts to shed branches to maintain a proper balance between root and foliage. (When a tree's root system starts to shrink, it cant support as much foliage as it once could, so it responds by losing branches). Also often seen is a general thinning of the foliage, i.e. the tree just doesn't have as thick a crown as it used to, or compared to a nearby health tree of the same species.
It is pretty much irreversible. Removing the dead branches is called "sanitation pruning" and does nothing to improve the health of the tree, it's more of an aesthetic/safety thing.
About the only thing you can do is make sure the tree does get some deep watering during any future droughts. A moderate application of a Phosphorous/Potassium fertilizer might be of benefit right now. NO nitrogen now however! Aeration and loosening of the soil over teh root system can help sometimes.
If it is starting to decline and that close to the house I would definitely get it taken down. I've seen many fairly healthy looking trees blow over in high winds that had very little root system left. You never can be sure whats going on underground The basis of tree health is maintaining a healthy root system.
Fungi (mushrooms of any type, there are several) growing from near the base of the tree are another real bad sign, indicating for sure you have a root rot fungus going on. Fungi growing from the trunk of the tree is almost worse, indicating trunk/stem rot. These trees can have good root systems and crowns, but are being weakened by internal rot and can break quite unexpectedly during high winds.
Can you take a picture and post it before it looses all it's leaves? Might be of some help. Also do you know what kind of oak it is? All oaks are in one of two groups red oak or white oak. Red oaks (red oak, black oak, shumard oak, scarlet oak etc) are short lived compared to white oaks (white oak, post oak, chinkapin oak, bur oak etc). When a red oak starts to show decline it may die in 2-5 years, while a white oak can hang on quite a bit longer. These are generalizations and a lot of factors can come into play.
What % of the tree's crown has been lost due to branch dieback, as you best remember the tree when it seemed healthy? How long (how many years) have you noticed the tree losing branches?
Google "oak decline", "oak decline missouri", "tree decline" etc and you can find a lot of information.
So generally a large oak, especially a large red oak, losing large branches in the upper half of the crown and/or showing lots of branch tip dieback, with some fungal fruiting bodies (mushrooms) showing at times, growing 20' from my house would be headed foe the woodpile ASAP.
I have never seen an oak or any tree recover from the onset of decline. It may hang in there 10 years or more, or it may collapse suddenly next year, impossible to say. But it will never make any "recovery" and it's giving you a heads up that it''s not going to be around much longer.
Keep in mind without seeing the tree or a decent picture I am not saying your tree is declining and needs to be cut down. Dead branches in lower crown and leaf loss during drought might be what you are seeing and the tree might be fine. But upper crown dieback in a large oak 20' from your house needs to be taken seriously.
You are a wealth of excellent information. Here are my pictures. The oak in question is labeled "problem oak". I took some control photos of other oaks on our property for comparison.
I did contact the MDC and their Forrester said she drives past our house twice a day and, although it is not a customary service, will stop by sometime this coming week and take a look at the tree.
I'm going to take this time to comment on the Missouri Department of Conservation. In the three years we have been here, I've had occasion to contact them several times. I find them to be knowledgeable, friendly, polite, anxious to help, and downright cool!
Last edited by Nu2pomona; 10-17-2010 at 10:29 AM..
You are a wealth of excellent information. Here are my pictures. The oak in question is labeled "problem oak". I took some control photos of other oaks on our property for comparison.
Nu2 - After looking at the pictures I will give the remote opinion that the tree is probably in decent shape, for the following reasons:
1) It is a post oak, a tough long-lived oak accustomed to poor soils and droughty conditions. Good.
2) No apparent major limbs dead in upper crown. Good
3) No overall twig end dieback. More good.
4) Trunk/base of tree looks decent.
5) Overall the tree crown looks full and "balanced", although noticeably thin / defoliated on the bottom, but this is Oct and ALL the leaves will be off in a couple weeks.
The defoliation is concentrated in the lower crown. Lots could be going on here but I suspect a leaf fungus disease (I'm not sure it was ever identified or given a name) that was common on post oak in the Ozarks this summer. Plus we had "jumping oak gall" bad on white oaks, (hit true white oak most often but I saw some on post oak also). Plus the drought you mentioned surely knocked some leaves off. Plus these big old mature post oaks tend to have kind of a loose, skimpy crown.
Overall I am not sure you have a problem at all and I would not get too concerned. The best time to critique the health of the tree is in mid-May next year after it has re-leafed. Right now it has run the gauntlet of numerous common summer insects, foliage diseases, a local drought, and is now into it's natural defoliation process. It's an old tree that has has had a lot of stuff thrown at it this season and though it looks kind of ratty right now it is a tough tree that has probably seen all this before.
Key to long term health (of any tree) is taking care of the root system. People always want to address what they can see and do to the above ground part of a tree, and neglect the most important part, the roots system. Avoid soil disturbance. Avoid soil compaction (vehicles or livestock around tree when soils is wet). Neither look to be a real major factor from your pictures.
Overall looks like a typical old post oak that has weathered another summer and I would hesitate to form an opinion until after it has a chance to refoliate next spring.
At least I've got a head start on raking leaves!!! I have a sweeper, and sweep the dog pen regularly. It keeps the leaves OUT of the house as they are long-haired Afghan Hounds and everything sticks in their coat. Outside the pen we simply mulch/mow the leaves back into the earth. We're trying to build soil.
The oak pictured next to the detached garage is (I believe) a white oak. The leaves are very different from most of our oaks. It has produced bushels of acorns this fall. They are beautiful, nutty fruits - worm and mildew free - and I am tempted to try leeching them and grinding them into flour. No - not really. we've dumped huge piles of them in our meadows - further away from the house where the deer will find them. For over a week, there were so many acorns on the pad in front of our garages, it was dangerous to walk around - like walking on marbles! Last year we had very few acorns off the same tree.
Our hickory trees produced far fewer nuts than normal this year. Blackberries dried up on the bushes before they could be picked. I found only a few morrels in spring, and not a single puffball (my favorite wild thing). Just not enough rain here and way too much rain in other parts of Missouri.
Thanks again for your help. I'll post back on this topic in May
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