Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-06-2013, 01:21 AM
 
320 posts, read 609,196 times
Reputation: 241

Advertisements

^mike0421, just use Google. I read a lot of news and business magazines and I don't keep a big bookmark file. You can find stuff in Businessweek or WSJ or Bureau of Labor Statistics or any other number of sources. What I said wouldn't be considered a controversial statement, though.

Re SD, one (very big) thing that's probably happening there is that as the small ag towns die (from ag consolidation, less need for town-centered businesses, etc) - the young people pick up and move to larger cities with more opportunities, and if you're from podunksville SD and you compare COL in MSP to SFSD, then yeah, you might have some sticker shock about the Twin Cities and choose SFSD.

But again, you need to step back and look at the big picture. If you compare MO, a low tax state I know and live in, to MN, a high tax state I know and lived in: MN has a huge, very highly ranked (worldwide) public university with reasonable tuition in the cities, and almost 200 other colleges in the state (not all public, obviously). MN has 19 (and growing) Fortune 500s (and half a million fewer people than MO), and MO has only 10 (and shrinking). It is a hotbed for tech startups. More than twice as many patents per capita as MO. Clearly MN's taxes make it a hostile place to do business.

And the states' respective GDPs: MO: $247B. MN: $267B. Per capita, that's about a $9k advantage for big bad high tax MN. So to sum it up: Minnesota has higher taxes, more colleges and universities, more fortune 500s, higher per capita and total GDP, and twice as many patents per capita as MO.

MSP is also vastly better than STL or KC (metros or cities) both as a place to live and a place to work, and in all honestly, not that much difference in COL due to the excellent and enjoyable public amenities that eliminate the need for individuals to privately fund many aspects of their recreation. Taxes pay for it. Having lived in all three places, the differences starkly illustrate why paying a little more in taxes can yield huge dividends. But of course, the people of MN think differently, too. They work harder and smarter than people in Missouri, they keep their houses painted, the weeds out of the sidewalk, cooperate with one another better, and just seem to care more in general. Honestly, it's just a better culture than MO, and I grew up in MO. But MO's excessively low taxes sure don't help.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-08-2013, 07:50 AM
 
Location: 32°19'03.7"N 106°43'55.9"W
9,359 posts, read 20,732,294 times
Reputation: 9922
I am thinking when it comes to Minnesota vs Missouri, perhaps demographic factors are at play. Socialism works much better in Sweden than in Venezuela for a reason.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 10:52 AM
 
320 posts, read 609,196 times
Reputation: 241
^ The big takeaway is that whatever they're doing in MN, tax-wise and spending-wise, clearly works better than what Missouri does. The notion that adopting the Kansas model, which starves education at all levels, starves infrastructure, and starves investment in public amenities - will somehow make the state more prosperous - is simply stupid. The only thing Kansas will succeed in is turning a once great state into a low tech, low wage, brain-drained third world place to avoid. Missouri should not follow suit. If anything, we should look toward successful and wealthy states like Minnesota that have a broad middle class, and try to emulate them. But our legislature and many of our rural residents seem to think otherwise. It's very disheartening.

Also, Sweden and Venezuela are completely different political structures. Sweden is socialist and democratic. Venezuela is a "socialist" dictatorship. It's like comparing brownies to poop.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 11:35 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,443 posts, read 6,989,683 times
Reputation: 4601
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
I am thinking when it comes to Minnesota vs Missouri, perhaps demographic factors are at play. Socialism works much better in Sweden than in Venezuela for a reason.
Oh uh. You touched on something there. I keep reading on this forum about how great Minnesota is and doing some research, demographics almost certainly plays a major role at least in a lot of the statistics that are used to demonstrate this superiority.

Setting aside weather preferences, I'm wondering what amenities the higher taxes would provide me and my family in a relatively affluent suburb of Minneapolis that I currently lack in my relatively affluent suburb of St. Louis?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 11:37 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,443 posts, read 6,989,683 times
Reputation: 4601
Quote:
Originally Posted by STLviaMSP View Post
^ The big takeaway is that whatever they're doing in MN, tax-wise and spending-wise, clearly works better than what Missouri does. The notion that adopting the Kansas model, which starves education at all levels, starves infrastructure, and starves investment in public amenities - will somehow make the state more prosperous - is simply stupid. The only thing Kansas will succeed in is turning a once great state into a low tech, low wage, brain-drained third world place to avoid. Missouri should not follow suit. If anything, we should look toward successful and wealthy states like Minnesota that have a broad middle class, and try to emulate them. But our legislature and many of our rural residents seem to think otherwise. It's very disheartening.

Also, Sweden and Venezuela are completely different political structures. Sweden is socialist and democratic. Venezuela is a "socialist" dictatorship. It's like comparing brownies to poop.
How do you compare Minnesota to other high tax and spend states in the midwest, such as Illinois? Illinois seems to me to be a mess. What's the difference between Minnesota and Illinois?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 11:44 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,443 posts, read 6,989,683 times
Reputation: 4601
Quote:
Originally Posted by STLviaMSP View Post
MSP is also vastly better than STL or KC (metros or cities) both as a place to live and a place to work, and in all honestly, not that much difference in COL due to the excellent and enjoyable public amenities that eliminate the need for individuals to privately fund many aspects of their recreation. Taxes pay for it. Having lived in all three places, the differences starkly illustrate why paying a little more in taxes can yield huge dividends. But of course, the people of MN think differently, too. They work harder and smarter than people in Missouri, they keep their houses painted, the weeds out of the sidewalk, cooperate with one another better, and just seem to care more in general. Honestly, it's just a better culture than MO, and I grew up in MO. But MO's excessively low taxes sure don't help.
I live in Kirkwood, which is considered a relatively affluent suburb of St. Louis with an excellent public school district.

I'm curious what amenities I lack here in St. Louis County that would be available to me in a similar suburb in Minneapolis?

And where did you live in Missouri? Because in my suburb, as in most of them I know of, people keep their houses painted and the weeds out of the sidewalks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 01:55 PM
 
Location: SW MO
662 posts, read 1,224,406 times
Reputation: 695
There is essentially nothing that you'd really lack in St. Louis (or in my case, Sioux Falls, SD) despite paying less in taxes compared to the high Minnesota taxes, assuming you are employed in a private sector job. The big difference is that there is a lot more welfare and government bureaucracy in Minnesota than in Missouri. That's what your tax dollars are paying for. They will come back and say "well, but we spend so much more on government services than you do so they must be much better than yours." Not necessarily- you can massively overpay for government services just like you can for everything else. You don't get much of a return on flushing money down the toilet in giving it to buddies of the lawmakers for pet projects, to the welfare dependency class to ensure they remain comfortably seated on the couch watching Days of Our Lives instead of working, and in inflated salary and benefits to lazy union government employees. High tax states are taking it on the chin financially as the productive citizens and businesses leave to lower-tax states, so the dependency class and elitists in the high-tax states try to "level the playing field" by trying to get the low-tax states to jack up taxes rather than give up their free stuff and power. That's about the only explanation I can come up with for why folks in states like MN and WI seem to keep coming onto our boards and lecturing us on how Missouri sucks because it has lower taxes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 02:28 PM
 
320 posts, read 609,196 times
Reputation: 241
"perhaps demographic factors are at play"

Minnesota certainly has fewer dinosaur-denyers and Santorum voters. That can't hurt. To which demographics do you refer?

As to STL amenities:

The big one is that in the Twin Cities, you can get by very nicely without a car if you live in MPLS, St. Paul, the inner ring, or a few of the more distant burbs connected by the outlying trails. This is a reflection of much stronger regional cooperation (as opposed to balkanized fiefdoms) in planning and zoning and transit, which extends to pedestrial infrastructure. The result is greater business and residential density, a more even distribution of shopping/necessities (little if any TIF abuse) even at the neighborhood level, and in general more time for the people to build social capital, less time sitting in traffic. I think this has a big impact on the health and well-being of the region, and I think the social interactions facilitated by this kind of planning make the business climate better. The whole region is oriented toward pedestrians and cyclists - you need to be there to experience it, but everyone rides bikes - which results in much more humane building practices and much greater use of natural amenities - for example, Minnehaha Creek is treated as a centerpiece, unlike River Des Peres, which is almost willfully gross. This all comes back to having a strong sense of the public good - that what is good for the many ought to be top priority. Similarly, schools aren't a delicate landmine scenario. The districts are big, inclusive, and well financed, and practically obliterate any benefit that one might achieve by sending their kids to private school. This means there is relatively even housing prices and relatively strong school options in most parts of the metro, so choosing where to live is driven more by neighborhood preferences than schools.

I don't want to diss on STL because that isn't the intent - but I want to present an accurate view of the differences. After six months of exploring neighborhoods, we never found one in STL or its suburbs that felt as cohesive, well-maintained, dense, filled with functional businesses, navigable, safe, family-oriented, and funky as typical twin cities neighborhoods. There are pockets here and there, and the Tower Grove zone, as well as the Delmar loop, come pretty close to the vibe that is common up there. But it isn't widespread. Even Kirkwood and Webster, as nice as they are, felt relatively shabby. If you took St. Charles Frontier Park, Tower Grove neighborhood, U-City Loop, Creve Coeur Lake, Kirkwood schools, and Clayton/mid U-City/Kwood housing would all need to converge and repeat 5-10 times for STL to have a similar dynamic vibe to what is common in the Twin Cities. You commented about houses being painted in KWood, but as an outsider, the homes and the infrastructure - including streets and sidewalks - felt shabby by comparison.

I think another big difference is the sheer number of colleges in the metro. There are many student districts, and that constant churn of young people keeps the culture fresh and changing, and it creates such a huge number of opportunities for people of all ages to experience great culture literally blocks from their homes, and often free, as much of it is associated with the many colleges and universities. There is always a lot to do, cheaply, and within walking distance of home, even in winter. The presence of these universities also means a lot of dynamic young people spend their formative years in the cities, stay there, and keep building them. As a result, the population is very well educated and generally gets the idea of civics.

I could keep going on - a lot of these things are "intangibles" but they create a distinctly different lifestyle than what seems to be the norm here. But again, there is generous tax funding and/or civic investment in all of the above, and overall, that culture does make a huge difference. It may not be easy to explain, but go there for a few months and you'll understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 02:33 PM
 
320 posts, read 609,196 times
Reputation: 241
One other thing. MN welfare programs are strongly targeted toward assimilating immigrants, and one thing you see is a lot of community and state level support for affordable housing, business startup tax credits, childcare friendly policies (like 12 weeks off when a child is born for mothers and 6 weeks for dads). Taken together, this means it's pretty easy for people of little means to take care of their kids, get an education, and become productive members of society, rather than stingy-ing out and creating a permanent underclass. It's a lesson STL could have used during the great migration. That benefits everyone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2013, 03:06 PM
 
320 posts, read 609,196 times
Reputation: 241
"How do you compare Minnesota to other high tax and spend states in the midwest, such as Illinois? Illinois seems to me to be a mess. What's the difference between Minnesota and Illinois?"

An excellent question. Illinois, like Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, and a portion of PA, has a split culture. In addition to the usual rural/urban divide all states have, the group of states (like California,too) are geographically divided by the groups that settled them. The northern parts of these states were settled by people that came by way of eastern PA, descendents of Germans and Quakers and many other continental European groups, while the southern portions were largely settled by Borderlanders from England/Scotland. Those groups could not be more different in how they look at everything from religion to the public good to schools to government. These differences largely persist. The result is a strong disunity in each of these states (a major reason they are called swing states), which certainly results in many of the problems IL has versus MN. Additionally all of these states (and Michigan) saw a huge influx of poor southern blacks and whites during the early twentieth century into their cities, which made the cities themselves less cohesive and certainly caused a lot of cultural friction, not just among black/white, but also along ethnic background lines. Again, problems that have persisted.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:18 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top