Missouri...Southern or Midwestern? (St. Louis, Rolla: free, great, union)

[GunnerTHB]

Originally Posted by onegoalstl

JEfferson county is transitional to an extent in certain areas. I think the transition line is just a generic thing to use on that map. Like I said before the Ozarks of Arkansas and Missouri are a different kind of Southern than the bootheel. I don't see much Midwestern about Pulaski County for example. They have been rooted towards the south since the civil war, and to this day there is still KKK activity around there, and rednecks.

"Rednecks" and "KKK" don't make a place southern. If that was true the state of Oregon in the 1920's would have been the deep deep south since they had more Klansmen than any other state & to this day still have a lot of such activity. Besides I'd like to see the KKK try to start somethin with all them black military boys out at Ft. Leonard Wood because it would be hillarious to watch the Klansmen get their asses handed to them.

And Stoddard County wasn't extremely Confederate. Bloomfield for example was quite pro-Union & still retains a strange midwestern influence to this day. For Bollinger County, one could make the Ozark argument for most of the county. The only part of the county that I would say is majority Southern would be the extreme southern parts near Advance, which are part of the Delta. I do see some upland south influence in BoCo but I also see some very strong midwestern influences around the Leopold area with regards to religion, ancestries, and dialects.

The civil war has no place in this discussion unless you think that it directly caused the cultures to act the way they have (which I think is entirely incorrect). The Bootheel during the civil war was a sparsely inhabited swamp. Little Dixie was southern but there is absolutely no argument that it is Midwestern today. Little Dixie was so named because of the people that settled the area. Why would the Bootheel be considered a "Little Dixie"? It is part of the South already. Little Dixie implies that it is beyond the reaches of the south (which the actual Little Dixie was/is). Boone County was considered the "Heart of Little Dixie". The locals would laugh in your face if you were to call them Southerners. Discussing Little Dixie has nothing to do with the cultural divisions in the State of Missouri in the year 2011. Therefore, it is irrelevant in this discussion.

Once again Onegoal, this discussion is not about the Civil War. It is a discussion of the modern Midwestern & Southern influences in the state of Missouri.

My ancestry is a long line of very observant people who have come to understand the Five state area that SE Missouri encompasses very well. (If I do say so myself)

[GraniteStater]

I definitely don't see the agrarian and gridded PLSS plots in the Ozarks. They are upland southern in character through and through. Most of the differences between the lower Midwest and the upland South have to do with landuse, organization, landcover, ancestry, income, etc. The Missouri Ozarks, particularly begining just a few tiers of counties south of I-70 just isn't like the lower Midwest.

[GunnerTHB]

file:///C:/Users/Silvy285/Desktop/mod.png (broken link)
The black line is more reflective of an actual transition line. Below this line, one could pretty much be considered to be in the Bootheel. Once again however, one must understand how to interpret maps. Just because a community is south of that line doesn't make it Southern & just because a community is north of that line doesn't make it Midwestern. Northern Scott County for example has a strong Midwest influence. However, Cape needs to be the line in my opinion because of the influence it has received in recent years from the Bootheel & localities that are considered Southern.

[kshe95girl]

Originally Posted by GunnerTHB

"Rednecks" and "KKK" don't make a place southern. If that was true the state of Oregon in the 1920's would have been the deep deep south since they had more Klansmen than any other state & to this day still have a lot of such activity. Besides I'd like to see the KKK try to start somethin with all them black military boys out at Ft. Leonard Wood because it would be hillarious to watch the Klansmen get their asses handed to them.

And Stoddard County wasn't extremely Confederate. Bloomfield for example was quite pro-Union & still retains a strange midwestern influence to this day. For Bollinger County, one could make the Ozark argument for most of the county. The only part of the county that I would say is majority Southern would be the extreme southern parts near Advance, which are part of the Delta. I do see some upland south influence in BoCo but I also see some very strong midwestern influences around the Leopold area with regards to religion, ancestries, and dialects.

The civil war has no place in this discussion unless you think that it directly caused the cultures to act the way they have (which I think is entirely incorrect). The Bootheel during the civil war was a sparsely inhabited swamp. Little Dixie was southern but there is absolutely no argument that it is Midwestern today. Little Dixie was so named because of the people that settled the area. Why would the Bootheel be considered a "Little Dixie"? It is part of the South already. Little Dixie implies that it is beyond the reaches of the south (which the actual Little Dixie was/is). Boone County was considered the "Heart of Little Dixie". The locals would laugh in your face if you were to call them Southerners. Discussing Little Dixie has nothing to do with the cultural divisions in the State of Missouri in the year 2011. Therefore, it is irrelevant in this discussion.

Once again Onegoal, this discussion is not about the Civil War. It is a discussion of the modern Midwestern & Southern influences in the state of Missouri.

My ancestry is a long line of very observant people who have come to understand the Five state area that SE Missouri encompasses very well. (If I do say so myself)

Awesome post, I tried to rep you on it, but they wont let me.
Everything you said about the Bootheel, BoCo, etc is absolutely true!

[GunnerTHB]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

I definitely don't see the agrarian and gridded PLSS plots in the Ozarks. They are upland southern in character through and through. Most of the differences between the lower Midwest and the upland South have to do with landuse, organization, landcover, ancestry, income, etc. The Missouri Ozarks, particularly begining just a few tiers of counties south of I-70 just isn't like the lower Midwest.

This is a valid point. However I would stop short of grouping the Ozarks to places such as Kentucky & Tennessee, two states that are classic examples of the Upland Southern experience. I consider the Missouri Ozarks to be quite a distinct, and neat region that blends both the South & Midwest with it's own unique flair.

[GunnerTHB]

Originally Posted by kshe95girl

Awesome post, I tried to rep you on it, but they wont let me.
Everything you said about the Bootheel, BoCo, etc is absolutely true!

Well thank ya! I would say my definition of the Bootheel & the Southern/Midwestern line in our side of the state is slightly more broad than yours, but at least we're in the same area .

[kshe95girl]

Originally Posted by GunnerTHB

This is a valid point. However I would stop short of grouping the Ozarks to places such as Kentucky & Tennessee, two states that are classic examples of the Upland Southern experience. I consider the Missouri Ozarks to be quite a distinct, and neat region that blends both the South & Midwest with it's own unique flair.

Having lived in TN and KY, I have to say the same thing.
Those 2 states really do not have much in common with the Ozarks, culturally or otherwise.

[kshe95girl]

Originally Posted by GunnerTHB

Well thank ya! I would say my definition of the Bootheel & the Southern/Midwestern line in our side of the state is slightly more broad than yours, but at least we're in the same area .

Your line on the map was pretty spot on, the area right around that line can wobble a bit, depending on where people come from, ancestry, even what families they married into, etc.

[GunnerTHB]

Originally Posted by kshe95girl

Your line on the map was pretty spot on, the area right around that line can wobble a bit, depending on where people come from, ancestry, even what families they married into, etc.

Yes. It's interesting to note how that line works its way south as you move west. The line effectively runs parallel with Crowley's Ridge until one enters Wayne County.

[kshe95girl]

Originally Posted by GunnerTHB

Yes. It's interesting to note how that line works its way south as you move west. The line effectively runs parallel with Crowley's Ridge until one enters Wayne County.

Crowleys Ridge has historically been the dividing line as one moves away from the big drop-off into the Delta at Benton.
BTW, it just occurred to me that you and I are probably the only 2 on this particular thread that know much of anything about the Ridge.