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Old 05-26-2011, 12:15 PM
 
543 posts, read 849,141 times
Reputation: 88

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
Actually, Missouri does not become decidedly Southern until you pass south of US60.
I grew up south of I-44, trust me, its not all Southern.
Agree. It depends where on US 60 as it dips down lower in some places. Like the bootheel driving there when you get passed Cape it has southern, Delta feel. I think that map i posted a few days ago is pretty good.

Even northern VA, the north portions of central KY I wouldn't consider Dixie niether, but still classified as a southern state.

Excluding St. Louis, and Ste Gen South of the MO river it does transition from Midwest to southern.

 
Old 05-26-2011, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Tippecanoe County, Indiana
26,375 posts, read 46,238,636 times
Reputation: 19455
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
Actually, Missouri does not become decidedly Southern until you pass south of US60.
I grew up south of I-44, trust me, its not all Southern.
The Upland southern characteristics actually extend at least to I-44 and up to 50 miles south of KC and STL.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,410 posts, read 36,834,968 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
The Upland southern characteristics actually extend at least to I-44 and up to 50 miles south of KC and STL.
-sigh-
Are we going to go all over this again?
Perhaps you should re-read this thread.
I rather think you wont, so I will save you the trouble.
The Mississippi River Hills Region is solidly Midwestern, not southern.
Have you ever lived there?
South of I-44 may geographically be Upland South, socially, its not.
There are pockets that are, but one cannot classify a whole region because of those pockets, thats intellectually dishonest.
One has to go below US60 for the region to become truly Southern.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 04:26 PM
 
Location: South South Jersey
1,652 posts, read 3,865,865 times
Reputation: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
The Upland southern characteristics actually extend at least to I-44 and up to 50 miles south of KC and STL.
Anyone who's lived for 20+ years in the small towns in Missouri's "Golden Valley" (Henry Co., etc.) within the '50 miles south of KC' zone GS describes above would know that they're part of a solidly Upland Southern cultural region. (I'm talking specifically about the western part of the state, remember; I won't comment on the St. Louis side [though I'd be happy to, as soon as I get to spend a decent amount of time there.. heh].) Before I moved to that part of MO in middle school (in 34 now and finally left MO, permanently, in 2005), I'd experienced a pretty good comparative tour of several Midwestern sub-regions (minus the far eastern parts like Ohio and Michigan.. know very little of those areas; sorry! ): born in the Quad Cities (specifically, Davenport), in IA, 3-6 in suburban Chicago, most of a year in Madison, Wisconsin, 6-12 in Omaha, NE, and 12-34 in western and central Missouri (minus a few years in Evanston, IL - Chicago area). Also, my mother's family is originally from extreme northern IL (my grandmother pronounced 'Wednesday' as 'Wednesdee') and my father's family is from SE Iowa, near MO (his mother had a few vaguely, incredibly subtly Southern vowels - my mother likes to remind us of that to this day). My paternal grandparents (again, the SE Iowa ones) thought of Missouri as Southern, though - and they ended up being right, as we were to discover upon moving there (from Omaha).

I think (hope) this debate will die when Southern-ness ceases to be (viewed as) something to be ashamed of.

Last edited by Alicia Bradley; 05-26-2011 at 04:39 PM..
 
Old 05-26-2011, 05:03 PM
 
543 posts, read 849,141 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
-sigh-
Are we going to go all over this again?
Perhaps you should re-read this thread.
I rather think you wont, so I will save you the trouble.
The Mississippi River Hills Region is solidly Midwestern, not southern.
Have you ever lived there?
South of I-44 may geographically be Upland South, socially, its not.
There are pockets that are, but one cannot classify a whole region because of those pockets, thats intellectually dishonest.
One has to go below US60 for the region to become truly Southern.
I wouldn't consider Sikeston, Cauthersville, Poplar Bluff to be upland south, and they are south of US60. Uplands south to me is more like Rolla, Lebanon. I consider Upland south to be WV, KY, southern IL, far northern TN. Springfield, Branson, West Plains, Poplar Bluff, Sikeston, Kennett are dixie cities.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Tippecanoe County, Indiana
26,375 posts, read 46,238,636 times
Reputation: 19455
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
-sigh-
Are we going to go all over this again?
Perhaps you should re-read this thread.
I rather think you wont, so I will save you the trouble.
The Mississippi River Hills Region is solidly Midwestern, not southern.
Have you ever lived there?
South of I-44 may geographically be Upland South, socially, its not.
There are pockets that are, but one cannot classify a whole region because of those pockets, thats intellectually dishonest.
One has to go below US60 for the region to become truly Southern.
I grew up in the Kansas City metro area and have visited nearly every county in MO as well as eastern KS. Obviously, the Mississippi Hills region is more agrarian and like the Midwest, along with the more Germanic characteristics inherent per early settlement patterns. However, I was mainly referring to the Ozarkian counties and their hinterlands of south-central and southwest MO with cultural extensions to the southeast of the Kansas City metro area. Look up the ancestry percentages in most of those counties and it can be clearly defined as a part of the upland South with a significant Scots-Irish, English, Irish, and French being more common than German. These areas have strong economic, education, and demographic similarities with the upland South. One factor that I often look at is in-migration. Typically these areas do not receive much in-migration or immigration from other areas and tend to be quite insular. Most tend to not be very diverse and are greater than 94-95% white. The median household income and the percentage of the population living below poverty mirrors the comprable other areas of the upland South. Unless things dramatically change, I will continue to classify the area as the upland South transition zone (map posted earlier is quite accurate) with some Midwest cultural influences.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Tippecanoe County, Indiana
26,375 posts, read 46,238,636 times
Reputation: 19455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicia Bradley View Post
Anyone who's lived for 20+ years in the small towns in Missouri's "Golden Valley" (Henry Co., etc.) within the '50 miles south of KC' zone GS describes above would know that they're part of a solidly Upland Southern cultural region. (I'm talking specifically about the western part of the state, remember; I won't comment on the St. Louis side [though I'd be happy to, as soon as I get to spend a decent amount of time there.. heh].) Before I moved to that part of MO in middle school (in 34 now and finally left MO, permanently, in 2005), I'd experienced a pretty good comparative tour of several Midwestern sub-regions (minus the far eastern parts like Ohio and Michigan.. know very little of those areas; sorry! ): born in the Quad Cities (specifically, Davenport), in IA, 3-6 in suburban Chicago, most of a year in Madison, Wisconsin, 6-12 in Omaha, NE, and 12-34 in western and central Missouri (minus a few years in Evanston, IL - Chicago area). Also, my mother's family is originally from extreme northern IL (my grandmother pronounced 'Wednesday' as 'Wednesdee') and my father's family is from SE Iowa, near MO (his mother had a few vaguely, incredibly subtly Southern vowels - my mother likes to remind us of that to this day). My paternal grandparents (again, the SE Iowa ones) thought of Missouri as Southern, though - and they ended up being right, as we were to discover upon moving there (from Omaha).

I think (hope) this debate will die when Southern-ness ceases to be (viewed as) something to be ashamed of.
Yes, I definitely agree regarding Henry County (Clinton). That county is very disimilar if you were to compare it to a somewhat more Midwest place overall like Buchanon County (St. Joseph).
 
Old 05-26-2011, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,410 posts, read 36,834,968 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
I grew up in the Kansas City metro area and have visited nearly every county in MO as well as eastern KS. Obviously, the Mississippi Hills region is more agrarian and like the Midwest, along with the more Germanic characteristics inherent per early settlement patterns. However, I was mainly referring to the Ozarkian counties and their hinterlands of south-central and southwest MO with cultural extensions to the southeast of the Kansas City metro area. Look up the ancestry percentages in most of those counties and it can be clearly defined as a part of the upland South with a significant Scots-Irish, English, Irish, and French being more common than German. These areas have strong economic, education, and demographic similarities with the upland South. One factor that I often look at is in-migration. Typically these areas do not receive much in-migration or immigration from other areas and tend to be quite insular. Most tend to not be very diverse and are greater than 94-95% white. The median household income and the percentage of the population living below poverty mirrors the comprable other areas of the upland South. Unless things dramatically change, I will continue to classify the area as the upland South transition zone (map posted earlier is quite accurate) with some Midwest cultural influences.
One has to live in various areas, not just visit, and not just look at statistical data to truly understand that places are not so neatly pigeonholed.
I would never dream to classify an area where I had not lived.
Based on that, here is where I have lived in Missouri.
St Louis: Midwestern
Ste Genevieve: Midwestern
Poplar Bluff: Southern
Columbia: Midwestern
Cape: Midwestern with southern influences
Greenville: a place all its own.
Kaskaskia Island: (yes, I know its technically Illinois, but....) Midwestern
 
Old 05-26-2011, 05:52 PM
 
Location: South South Jersey
1,652 posts, read 3,865,865 times
Reputation: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
One has to live in various areas, not just visit, and not just look at statistical data to truly understand that places are not so neatly pigeonholed.
I would never dream to classify an area where I had not lived.
Based on that, here is where I have lived in Missouri.
St Louis: Midwestern
Ste Genevieve: Midwestern
Poplar Bluff: Southern
Columbia: Midwestern
Cape: Midwestern with southern influences
Greenville: a place all its own.
Kaskaskia Island: (yes, I know its technically Illinois, but....) Midwestern
I'd argue that CoMO is only non-Southern because of the huge influx of people from all over the US (esp. mostly-non-Southern StL and KC).. world, even.. to that particular little part of the state. Rural Boone Countians (as well as natives of the nearby 'Kingdom of Calloway' [County] ).. not so much. (Again, though, depends on how you define 'Midwest.' Why can't it have Southern parts?)
 
Old 05-26-2011, 06:01 PM
 
543 posts, read 849,141 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicia Bradley View Post
I'd argue that CoMO is only non-Southern because of the huge influx of people from all over the US (esp. mostly-non-Southern StL and KC).. world, even.. to that particular little part of the state. Rural Boone Countians (as well as natives of the nearby 'Kingdom of Calloway' [County] ).. not so much. (Again, though, depends on how you define 'Midwest.' Why can't it have Southern parts?)
Calloway COunty in the 1960s made a county flag. It looks just like a Confederate battle flag.

Also Cape being a Midwest town with southern influence, Cape seems a lot more southerness to me.
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