10-13-2010, 09:50 PM
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Just a dumb question, but why not utilize a different Port in Wash. and bring this equipment up I90 instead. Shouldn't cause anyone any grief in the middle of the night going through Spokane and Coeur De Lane.
10-14-2010, 12:10 AM
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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From one of the articles, which I'm too lazy to go reread this instant, there was some mention of a contract for part of the trip already set up in Lewiston ID. Maybe just as the final river port, I don't recall offhand. But as I mentioned above, this all seems to have assumed that using Hwy 12 was also feasible, and that may have been, uh, overly-optimistic.
10-14-2010, 03:40 AM
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
strudel42
Thoughts?
"It's jobs, jobs, jobs"
The only thing the Governor doesn't say is, WHO'S jobs. These people love to create jobs when they are for Canadians or Koreans, or anybody other then Americans.
10-14-2010, 06:12 AM
Location: C-U metro
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Overpasses
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reziac
From one of the articles, which I'm too lazy to go reread this instant, there was some mention of a contract for part of the trip already set up in Lewiston ID. Maybe just as the final river port, I don't recall offhand. But as I mentioned above, this all seems to have assumed that using Hwy 12 was also feasible, and that may have been, uh, overly-optimistic.
The reason they chose not to use I-90 is due to the overpasses. These drums are 100 feet in diameter and, obviously, that will not fit under an overpass. The exits would have to be able to accommodate the drum and most exit ramps are single lane, not double lane which is necessary to move down the road.
A better question would have been why not use a route in Hudson Bay? There usually isn't much traffic there (outside of Churchill) and not many overpasses either. It takes much longer by ship but you won't have that many people squawking about "my little slice of heaven that can never, ever, ever, ever, ever change or have anything bad happen to it caused by someone, even me, or an act of god".
10-14-2010, 08:38 AM
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
flyingcat2k
The reason they chose not to use I-90 is due to the overpasses. These drums are 100 feet in diameter and, obviously, that will not fit under an overpass. The exits would have to be able to accommodate the drum and most exit ramps are single lane, not double lane which is necessary to move down the road.
As I speculated in a previous post -- overpasses are the usual Interstate bugaboo when moving some huge load, and can completely nix the operation. And there may be points where the exit goes
under the main freeway, rendering that exit impassable. (I don't recall if there are any such on I-90 but it's certainly not uncommon, especially in mountain areas.) The rigid length of the load may preclude using something as curved as the up-and-down of an exit, too. (I gotta wonder how it'll make some of the turns on Hwy 12. Seems to me if no prior loads of this size have gone that way, it would be prudent to build a dummy load, same dimensions but no real weight, and give it a trial run. Would be a lot cheaper than backing the first real load halfway across Idaho if it didn't work out, or resulted in a situation like
trucks on Tail of the Dragon. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flyingcat2k
A better question would have been why not use a route in Hudson Bay? There usually isn't much traffic there (outside of Churchill) and not many overpasses either. It takes much longer by ship but you won't have that many people squawking about "my little slice of heaven that can never, ever, ever, ever, ever change or have anything bad happen to it caused by someone, even me, or an act of god".
Aside from the fact that it's another half-turn around the world from Korea?? and probably has to go around either South America or Africa to boot? (Given that the Northwest Passage isn't doable for container ships, and that they're probably too large to come via the ancient, relatively narrow Panama Canal, and maybe the Suez too -- I know both have size limits that prohibit a lot of modern cargo ships.)
Probably because then you wind up with a timing issue and perhaps an insurmountable transportation issue. Far as I know there's no real roads westbound from the western part of Hudson Bay, and most of that area is subarctic tundra, which is to say, bogland (some forested, some not). So you can't
build a road either -- it sinks the first time you put a load on it. The solution when stuff has to be moved is to wait for winter, build a temporary snow road, and use that... with all the attendant problems of running diesel equipment in -40F temperatures. Then if you build a dock it sinks into the bog when you put that 300 ton load on it. Meanwhile your ship is frozen into the bay (you DID make sure the hull can take that, right? Most can't.) But even deep winter ice won't support a 300 ton load, let alone 200 of them, so getting your stuff OFF the ship is a problem too. This is the same problem Russia has had since forever with trying to settle and develop Siberia. It can be done, but it's a one-piece-at-a-time, highly seasonal operation, and there are some severe limits and impediments imposed by the underlying bog.
And meanwhile the Canadian greenies are jumping up and down about destruction of pristine wilderness (which is what most of that area IS, being pretty much useless for anything else until we get another couple degrees of global warming).
Looks to me like if you're going to do an eastern route, you need to come up through the Great Lakes to Thunder Bay (Lake Superior) and take the Trans-Canada highway to Winnepeg, Saskatoon, and Edmonton. While this route is relatively flat and about as direct as you can get from the east coast, I have no idea what the highway itself is like or whether it's got its own array of obstacles and restrictions, or whether the antique locks on the St.Lawrence channel are up to passing a barge of the needful size. If not, you have to start hauling from Quebec City or Montreal, and overland transport of loads of this magnitude is
vastly more expensive than going by water -- the sheer distance might render it impractical (or raise costs beyond what we'd care to pay for the eventual product).
Maybe the solution is smaller tanks (since a domestic steel mill that can do the job doesn't seem likely to appear any time soon), but I expect they've developed at the size they are because that's the only way to make the extraction operation profitable. Most people don't realise the scale we're talking here... it ain't no backyard operation. Think on the scale of the Butte mining pit, only liquid.
Not that Hwy 12 is a great solution, but might be it's the best available. Or maybe it's not. As I said the whole thing needs more study; seems to me it's being rushed as there are some special interests along the way (like the contract with Lewiston ID) that are pushing it no matter what.
Last edited by Reziac; 10-14-2010 at 08:46 AM ..
10-14-2010, 08:48 AM
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaaBoom
"It's jobs, jobs, jobs"
The only thing the Governor doesn't say is, WHO'S jobs. These people love to create jobs when they are for Canadians or Koreans, or anybody other then Americans.
Globalization: a method for developing economies to extract money from richer economies without the tiresome bother of spending their own money. Rinse and repeat until every country is equally poor.
10-15-2010, 08:55 AM
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Two articles from New West magazine (which I usually take with a bucket of salt as they tend to be treehugger-wacko at times, while simultaneously espousing residential development of rural lands) on this issue and the court case now pending in Idaho. Obviously if it gets blocked in Idaho, the question becomes moot for Montana's end of Hwy 12.
Standing in the Way: How One Idaho Couple Plans to Stop Big Oil’s Big Rigs, Part 1 | Steve Bunk | Energy | NewWest.Net
Standing in the Way: How One Idaho Couple Plans to Stop Big Oil’s Big Rigs, Part 2 | Steve Bunk | Energy | NewWest.Net
There is a photo of one of the cylinders, and it notes that the contract apparently goes back to 2006 -- long before any road permits were requested or issued.
It also notes that over 100 turnouts have been added to Hwy12 in Idaho -- I can't see that as a bad thing itself, given that any slow load can cause a backup for miles on a windy two-lane road with no turnouts.
The couple's own website (strident in tone, but with some good photos);
http://www.fightinggoliath.org/
Side note: Montana is one of the few places where I've seen mountain road passing lanes and turnouts in logical places. In California they usually put the passing lane at the very top of the hill or even on the downslope side -- AFTER you needed it, and half the time you can't get around the now-accelerating slow truck before the lane ends!!
10-16-2010, 12:02 AM
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reziac
Aside from the fact that it's another half-turn around the world from Korea?? and probably has to go around either South America or Africa to boot? (Given that the Northwest Passage isn't doable for container ships, and that they're probably too large to come via the ancient, relatively narrow Panama Canal, and maybe the Suez too -- I know both have size limits that prohibit a lot of modern cargo ships.).
I agree with most of what you say. But I'm pretty sure that one of the existing routes talked about in this video, is the Panama Canal. These loads will be up to 24 feet wide. The Panamax ships that go through the Panama Canal are 106 feet wide. These may be wide loads for the highways, but they are a piece of cake for the Panama Canal.
I think its all about economics, not necessity. Exxon will save a million dollars or more a load, on shipping costs by cutting out passage though the Panama Canal. Of course they are going to try to ship through Montana, if they can save a couple of hundred million dollars. Even if it is not the most practical route.
10-16-2010, 09:28 AM
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,700 posts, read
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Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KaaBoom
I agree with most of what you say. But I'm pretty sure that one of the existing routes talked about in this video, is the Panama Canal. These loads will be up to 24 feet wide. The Panamax ships that go through the Panama Canal are 106 feet wide. These may be wide loads for the highways, but they are a piece of cake for the Panama Canal.
I think its all about economics, not necessity. Exxon will save a million dollars or more a load, on shipping costs by cutting out passage though the Panama Canal. Of course they are going to try to ship through Montana, if they can save a couple of hundred million dollars. Even if it is not the most practical route.
There are political ramifications to using the Canal. The Canal is currently operated by the Chinese and as such, they will not allow countries that they are not friendly with, to use the canal. So the question is, is China friendly with the flag these ships are flying? Makes a big difference.
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Most Common Occupations - Healthcare support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Protective service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Fire fighting and prevention, and other protective service workers including supervisors (%)
Most Common Occupations - Law enforcement workers including supervisors (%)
Most Common Occupations - Food preparation and serving related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Personal care and service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and office occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Office and administrative support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)