10-08-2010, 05:07 PM
Location: State of General Disarray
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This is a hot topic around here. Conoco-Phillips is currently awaiting an Idaho Supreme Court decision on whether they should be permitted to drive oversized shipments across US Highway 12 from the Port of Lewiston to a refinery in Billings. Exxon-Mobil also plans to use this route for 207 so-called "big-rig" shipments bound for the oil sands in northern Alberta.
Critics say the winding roads are dangerous for such large loads and that there is great risk of environmental damage as the loads will run straight by the Lochsa and Blackfoot rivers. The roadways will have to be modified to accommodate the loads and the routes will be closed to traffic for stretches of time while the trucks slowly make their way along.
An overview of the project can be read here:
Highway 12: Big rigs set stage for large debate
I posted this video over in the Idaho forum but thought I'd post it here, too, in case anyone is interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyPqqUu4ojw
Thoughts?
10-08-2010, 05:32 PM
Location: NW Montana
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Make sure you 'Google' Montana Highway 35 for all the rigs that have dumped on it over the past many years, and that's just a 35-mile-long stretch with much less traffic.
10-08-2010, 06:32 PM
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Thanks for cross-posting it, Strudel! The proposal (according to the video) will only benefit foreign companies, not us. Also, the proposal claims that the transports will only be temporary, but the changes to the infrastructure/environment are permanent. Watch that video, everybody--we should not go quietly into this nightmare...
10-08-2010, 06:50 PM
Location: State of General Disarray
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Montygarlic -- Yeah, I remember a pretty major fuel tanker spill on 35 a year or two ago... weren't residents evacuated? And that was during the day; these big guys will be running at night.
Clark Fork -- I haven't seen much about this on the Montana forum, so wanted to post it here. The Missoulian article points out it will take a year to get all the Exxon shipments up to AB (possibly longer). I do think Exxon is using Idaho and Montana to further their own profits while we end up paying for the infrastructure. I have to wonder what sort of backroom dealings have been going on here.
10-08-2010, 09:16 PM
Location: In The Outland
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We must remember that we in Montana pay less in taxes than we get back for our highway maintenance and all and we do need to help lower the cost of petroleum until the alternatives become more mainstream and competitive.
I think the current gas prices are acceptable but they will go up if we stifle the efforts to produce more oil right now.
You all know how politics works and I have no doubt that those big rigs will be rolling through our state.
10-08-2010, 11:46 PM
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Reputation: 3737
Okay, I actually read the linked article, which some of y'all apparently did not. This is about moving equipment, NOT about tanker trucks. Have you ever seen a house or barn being moved? Those big old 2-storey houses east of Belgrade were all moved from Bozeman. The big old barn on Nelson Road west of Bozeman came all the way from Three Forks (Trident actually). Do you remember when that big brick office building was moved in Bozeman? Same type of operation. It's a one-shot or occasional disruption, not a continuous problem. As I recall, those 8 big old houses got moved from Bozeman in the space of a couple months, and the world didn't end.
Permit loads pay weight fees to cover damage to the road. If the fees aren't high enough for that, raise them. If there are risks of damage, require a liability bond (not just insurance). The load is going to go one way or another, unless you want to give up your cars sometime in the foreseeable future, when the price of gas gets beyond average folks due to so many restrictions being put on the oil industry that there's no profit in it in North America. Personally I'd rather be beholdin' to Alberta and Exxon-Mobil (the last even partly American-owned oil company) than be at the mercy of Saudi Arabia and China and Shell Oil and British Petroleum. Because THAT is the alternative, if we lose our oil industry entirely. And if that happens and foreign oil gets us by the balls for good and all -- we'll wind up too damned broke to even consider funding the infrastructure to generate alternative energy sources.
Now, a better alternative would be if the heavy equipment was built right here in Montana and Alberta, not in Korea -- but we've already driven all our heavy manufacturing out of America.
Do you sense a trend? I sure do.
.
10-09-2010, 12:09 AM
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It's valuable to hear alternative viewpoints; I'm always willing to listen to good arguments. Indeed the plan calls for mega-loads of heavy equipment, not tanker trucks (a tanker truck did spill oil along the Lochsa recently, but that's another story), but those mega-loads themselves on a long, narrow and winding road will change that road forever. I'm actually very pro-business--I''m just worried about that particular route they've chosen, along the Lochsa, a designated "wild and scenic river" with immense natural and historic value (Lewis and Clark). There are other possible routes, Highway 12 is just more direct, and thus cheaper. But the potential negative impact in the long run, to a unique part of the NW, with more and more mega-loads coming in (because it will most likely continue, once it gets started) is what worries me. Here's today's news:
More mega-loads proposed for Highway 12 - Spokesman.com - Oct. 8, 2010
10-09-2010, 02:17 AM
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
8,086 posts, read
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Reputation: 3737
200+ loads is certainly significant, and I think the whole thing needs to be studied in complete depth before a decision is made.
Power lines can be taken down, then restrung after the load passes -- this is routinely done with oversized loads. (Moving the poles seems a better option if you're going to do it repeatedly.) The main problem for megaloads is overpasses. If it weren't for that, most would go straight down the nearest Interstate -- which are loaded with overpasses by design, and sometimes the trick of avoiding a low overpass by getting off, then back on across the exit, isn't available or is blocked by some projection. At any rate, part of the routing process for an oversized load is charting all obstacles that can or can't be moved. It would be useful to compare major vs minor routes for relative number of obstacles.
[When the aforementioned barn was moved, it went past my place and I happened to be coming home right after it -- I have a nifty photo here somewhere. I asked the guys who were moving it why it went by this unlikely and roundabout backroad route, and it was because there was something projecting over the highway at some point that made it impassable for such a large load -- I vaguely recall it was a powerline that was impractical to disconnect, or too many of them or something like that.]
I do wonder what a traffic comparison would show, of using the Interstate vs the older highways. Which would actually be more disruptive to more people? I'd guess the Interstate probably gets about 10 times the traffic
per lane , and a much higher percentage of truck traffic -- disrupting that is not only an economic disruption on the recipient's end with potential loss of perishable goods, but can also cost the truck driver (effectively making him work for free or even at a loss). That sort of economic factor needs to be considered too.
My own experience is that Hwy 12 across Idaho is generally all but deserted, compared to I-90. I haven't gone that way since ?1977? (it was still two-lane all the way; per the webcam it appears to have been substantially rebuilt since then), but at the time I didn't see another vehicle from the last little berg in ID all the way to Hwy 93, other than a paving crew at the top of Lolo Pass. However, I've also seen Lolo Pass with half the asphalt gone after a hard winter. I do question its structural integrity under repeated loads of this magnitude, and whether the mountainside underneath can support the repeated load without sustaining hidden structural damage. That's less likely to be a consideration on an Interstate, as they don't cling precariously to a high-rise goat track the way some older mountain roads do.
I don't think the tourism argument holds as much economic water. If anything, there's likely to be a considerable visitor component standing around gawking and going "Oooh, awesome!" A smart operator would promote it as a sight you won't see every day and may never see again.
It does seem to me that there were assumptions made too early, that locked them into routing via Lewiston ID -- if roads were the only factor, it probably would have made more sense to go up via Moses Lake and Spokane instead, thus avoiding all the serious goat tracks. In looking at the map, once you're to Lewiston you're kind of locked into Hwy 12, either that or some serious backtracking (hundreds of miles worth since the alternate routes out of there are probably not even doable for such loads). Assuming that Hwy 12 would be a feasible route seems to have been part of the bargain, and it may prove otherwise.
My cynical little voice informs me that the real moral of the story is never build good roads. If you build it, they will come.
My other cynical little voice wants to know where they plan to get the locomotive they'll need to haul 600,000 pounds up that grade at more than 2 mph.
10-09-2010, 02:41 AM
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
8,086 posts, read
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Reputation: 3737
About the "environmental damage" thing: I think this is largely a red herring thrown out by those who wish to block ALL economic development related to natural resources. This wouldn't be the first time a mondo load has gone down the back roads -- many a time a dramatically oversized load has passed in the dark hours, and most people never knew, other than that the power was out for a while during the night. It's not like the megaload suddenly decides to randomly trundle off the road and across the landscape. And power lines don't get moved to the other side of the county; they get moved to the edge of the existing easement, most likely a distance of about ten feet to a spot that is already part of the cleared right-of-way. Bridges and roadbeds are already routinely repaired, replaced, and improved. The view changes for half an hour as the parade goes by, then changes back to what it was before. So where's the damage?
10-09-2010, 09:14 AM
Location: NW Montana
451 posts, read
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Quote:
200+ loads is certainly significant, and I think the whole thing needs to be studied in complete depth before a decision is made.
Bingo! And when that decision is made, it would be great if there could be some consideration of not only the environment 'risks' (if any), but also the potential economic pros and cons.
But as you said, it becomes a political situation which doesn't mean anything sensible will come of it..
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Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)