Montana won't solve your problems..... (Boulder: transplants, real estate, how much)

[TwoBear]

As I read about the many "moving to Montana" threads, it seems to me most folks have a perception of Montana that isn't quite right. It's been my experience that what ever things somebody is trying to escape, they simply end up bringing to Montana as baggage, where it gets worse. Montana is not some haven where the simple life can be lived, we still have traffic, no jobs worth a flip, and absurdly overpriced real estate in the western part of the state. The people here are very transient and not nearly is friendly as the midwestern states.

Nearly every trailhead in the western part of the state will have multiple cars parked every day of the week. The rivers are slammed with one raft after another. It is getting harder and harder to get away from people even in our most remote regions.

I personally believed that western Montana sold its soul beginning in the late 80's. Gone are many of the lazy ranches and rural areas in exchange for housing developments, roads, and big subdivisions. People were looking to cash in on rising real estate prices and an influx of out of state money. Real estate agents, developers, land speculators all got in on the game and gone forever are the pristine rural landscapes that were home to many wintering elk and deer. What we have now is low paying service sector jobs and virtually no industry. Local stores with unique flare are slowly being replaced with chain stores and those that remain have become tourist shops with chinese goods.

The local highways are slowly being replaced by new multiple lane expressways were you are more likely to see a subaru or suv then you are a stock truck hauling horses. The USFS is continuing the process of closing forest roads and limiting access to the national forest. This process concentrates traffic into the remaining forest roads.

We have made no effort in western Montana to build sustainable industry or jobs. Instead, we have tried to create and supply a utopia for out of state money interest via real estate. We have over priced housing, no decent jobs, and a western culture that has been pushed further and further into the past. Our natural resources have become a playing field for big environmetal groups and accessing these resources has become increasingly difficult. While I admit I still love Montana, I also know that I hate the direction we have gone. Montana is not the same, Montana certainly is not the utopia so many think it is.

[dread_siren]

well said, that's been my big question seeing all the Oregon and Washington plates at my small towns Easter egg hunt this year... less than 900 population and there were more cars than the turn out for all the football games put together! every other one almost with out of state plates. "new" to the "country life" sadly one job might open every 3 months in troy...

one slogan I have always lived by... no matter where you go, there you are!

[Montana Griz]

Originally Posted by TwoBear

As I read about the many "moving to Montana" threads, it seems to me most folks have a perception of Montana that isn't quite right. It's been my experience that what ever things somebody is trying to escape, they simply end up bringing to Montana as baggage, where it gets worse. Montana is not some haven where the simple life can be lived, we still have traffic, no jobs worth a flip, and absurdly overpriced real estate in the western part of the state. The people here are very transient and not nearly is friendly as the midwestern states..In general, those that "are not very friendly" are most likely "new-to-the-state" in the last 25 years or so and not true locals.

Nearly every trailhead in the western part of the state will have multiple cars parked every day of the week. The rivers are slammed with one raft after another. It is getting harder and harder to get away from people even in our most remote regions. EXACTLY what I experienced in Colorado from early 1965 to when my wife and I left in early 1980

I personally believed that western Montana sold its soul beginning in the late 80's. Gone are many of the lazy ranches and rural areas in exchange for housing developments, roads, and big subdivisions. People were looking to cash in on rising real estate prices and an influx of out of state money. Real estate agents, developers, land speculators all got in on the game and gone forever are the pristine rural landscapes that were home to many wintering elk and deer. .......and this would only get worse far more rapidly if we had a significant influx of "industry" from out of state. I see no way that "industrial growth" will come from within the state of Montana without the involvement of out-of-state Industrial "Holding companies" and similiar corporations that have "no real concern" for how "it" will effect Montana and/or the "way-of-life" that drew many of us here to begin with. What we have now is low paying service sector jobs and virtually no industry. Local stores with unique flare are slowly being replaced with chain stores and those that remain have become tourist shops with chinese goods.

The local highways are slowly being replaced by new multiple lane expressways were you are more likely to see a subaru or suv then you are a stock truck hauling horses. The USFS is continuing the process of closing forest roads and limiting access to the national forest. This process concentrates traffic into the remaining forest roads. ....EXACTLY what happened in Colorado

We have made no effort in western Montana to build sustainable industry or jobs. ....Yes this true to a point........However,.....Can you imagine how much more quickly and wide-spread what you just referenced in the above paragraph would occur if we had a 100% increase in our population in a 10 year period....Instead, we have tried to create and supply a utopia for out of state money interest via real estate. Don't blame that on the "real, true, old-time Montanans in R.E......blame it on those out-of-state transplants in the R.E. business (and out of state developers) that have moved here in the last 25 years. We have over priced housing, no decent jobs, and a western culture that has been pushed further and further into the past. Our natural resources have become a playing field for big environmetal groups and accessing these resources has become increasingly difficult. Agreed.....but that, again,....is the result of the efforts of out of state transplants who moved here to pad their pockets, not because of the way "they-found Montana to be" in the 1950s ......that's why I moved here from Colorado.....it was ruined in less than 20 years. I know its happening here, but Thank God, at a much slower pace than in Colorado While I admit I still love Montana, I also know that I hate the direction we have gone. Montana is not the same, Montana certainly is not the utopia so many think it is.

.........I agree with much of what you have posted,.however I do not agree with some of your conclusions, and I respectfully disagree with your idea that an influx of "industry" would "help save Montana" from it's current path down the road to it's perceived failure.

If I may, I'd like to insert my opinions (in RED) in your post as related to certain thoughts and opinions you have expressed. You are certainly entitled to your thoughts and opinions regarding Montana, and I respect that......please bear in mind, I certainly am no expert, but having lived in (the mountains of) Colorado for 16 years...... (with 3 horses & used them for "packing camp in and packing game out" as your profile photo so beautifully shows)......and then here in the B.R. Valley for almost 32 years, I feel I can speak with some degree of validity.

The changes that occurred in Colorado (and what caused those changes) were devistating to that state in the eyes of people like myself (outdoorsman, conservationist, hunter, fisherman, horseman, ranchers, farmers, etc). Beginning in approx 1965, various types of "industry", manufacturing, etc began to establish themselves in various locations in Colorado (primarily along the "front range" at that time). Colorado in 1965 had approx 1,898,000 pop.....2010 it is at approx 5,101,000.
Metro Denver was approx 400,000---2010 it was at 650,000.
Colorado Springs in 1965 was approx 80,000.....in 2010 it was 416,000!!!
Most of this growth was the result of out of state money, "industry" and other out of state interests......none of which had the state's interest at heart.

.......Just a very few examples of companies (just in Boulder & Weld Counties) that moved in AND brought at least half of their employees with them: IBM (6500 families over 7 years from: Endicott, NY and San Jose, CA); Kodiak; Budweiser; Head Ski; Leaning Tree; and many, many, many other companies -- at least 200 other firms of this size had moved their operations to CO just from 1965 to 1971----all in the name of "progress."

. The "impact" on the "way-of-life" of local residents, ranchers, farmers and cities of varing sizes was totally negative.....in a variety of ways. 80% of these folks that moved (transferred) to CO (or moved to CO to gain employment) did not move there because they liked the way on life in pre-1965 CO......they moved there for a job.....and in most cases kept their "east-coast", "west-coast" (and many places in-between) philosophies.

IMHO the main reason CO changed & grew so dramaticly from 1965 to present was the influx of out-of-state "industry". Sure, there were some jobs created for locals......but it was minimal compared to the number of "transplants" into the state. The "mind-set" in general of (most) of those folks that ended up moving to CO ((was not because they 'wanted to'))-- is what contributed to the gradual (negative) change from what was a very desireable place to live and enjoy all that Colorado has (had) to offer prior the population explosion resulting (IMHO) from out-of-state "industry" companies moving there.

I know many folks will take offense at my comments and opinions, but they are MY opinions and comments formed from: working in, living in, retireing in and traveling extensively (my entire ---40 yr--- working career) in the Rocky Mountain West since the 1950s. So, please don't waste your time "flaming me". Constructive and honest differences of opinion are welcome. At age 79, I learned long ago to respect the opinions of others (and expect that in return) and I realize that we all have a different perspective as to how we "view" circumstances that we encounter in our daily lives.

.....P.S. Hey Two Bear............

I just checked out your Web Site.......very well done! And also, we're darn near neighbors. I live about 10 miles from your location. And something else you'll appreciate........about 10 days ago, I had (38) Elk on my place --just 14 acres-- for 2 days....7 Bulls (still with last year"s antlers) just 4 calves and 27 cows. And then today I saw the same herd about 3/4 mile away, and the bulls had dropped their antlers. Great living in Montana, eh?

[bongo403]

Well said. I wonder especially about all the posts from those who admit they have never even been to Montana, yet feel compelled to move here. I cannot relate to that at all. While I have often been compelled to vacation in places based on perception, pictures, or articles, I've never been compelled to just pick up and move to a place I've never seen or experienced first-hand. I am frankly surprised at how many seem to feel that way about Montana.

Every place in the world has its positives and negatives, and Montana is no exception. Often times people become so focused on what they want to escape, that they only see what they want to see and put on blinders to the negatives. Throughout my life in Montana, I've known plenty of people who have moved here seeking paradise and after only a few months couldn't wait to leave. I've also known others who found it to be a perfect fit. But you can't base that on pictures, articles, or the opinions of others. If you're considering Montana - visit! - preferably several times and in all seasons (Fall, Winter, Spring, Summer, and Road Construction.)

[Montana Griz]

Originally Posted by bongo403

Well said. I wonder especially about all the posts from those who admit they have never even been to Montana, yet feel compelled to move here. I cannot relate to that at all. While I have often been compelled to vacation in places based on perception, pictures, or articles, I've never been compelled to just pick up and move to a place I've never seen or experienced first-hand. I am frankly surprised at how many seem to feel that way about Montana.

Every place in the world has its positives and negatives, and Montana is no exception. Often times people become so focused on what they want to escape, that they only see what they want to see and put on blinders to the negatives. Throughout my life in Montana, I've known plenty of people who have moved here seeking paradise and after only a few months couldn't wait to leave. I've also known others who found it to be a perfect fit. But you can't base that on pictures, articles, or the opinions of others. If you're considering Montana - visit! - preferably several times and in all seasons (Fall, Winter, Spring, Summer, and Road Construction.)

Anyone who moves to anyplace in Montana ..without visiting for at least a week during each of our four seasons......(preferrably more than once).....is quite possibly making a very large mistake. One that could cause them to hate the state from day-one.... and also find out very quickly that they have absolutely nothing in common with their neighbors.....don't like the area where their house is located, etc,etc,etc. Visit, Visit, Visit.....an absolute must!! I live out in the county and have a legal 100 yard firing range on my property. Can you imagine what would transpire if a new neighbor would move in to the house that is 4/10ths of a mile from me, and I decide on a Saturady morning to work up a new load for my .338 Win Mag, and end up firing off about 20 rounds from 10 to 11:30 am. And if this new neighbor (who never visited) should happen to be "anti-gun"; a member of the Sierra Club and Peta, thinks it's allright to feed the deer, elk and bear and turkeys that frequent the area during various times of the year and is violently opposed to hunting in any form......................wouldn't this situation be just great?

Those that move in this fashion, deserve any and all of the unpleasant results that prove to be the results of their un-researched choice. I have no compassion for folks of this type.......and believe me, it happens all-too-frequently here in the Bitterroot. Another somewhat related problem is when 'the new neighbors' immediately begin to let their dog(s) have complete un-supervised freedom to run free from dawn to dusk. Usually what happens is that after a week or so of this situation.....the dog comes up missing.....No body in the area knows what has happened to the dog, but the rumor is that there is a "boogy-man" who lives in the woods and he makes dogs that chase wildlife disappear.. I've heard tell that this "old Boggy Man" is a retired old rancher who just happens to own an old .30/40 Krag and is an excellent shot out to 200 yards.

Loose running dogs have never been a problem in my 32 years of living in this area.

[Mt-7]

Ok I am a transplant.
(7 stands and bows head)
I am in agreement with much of what is posted. We did visit in all seasons. However for some it gets into your skin and you just cannot let it go.
Hence we are here with our ill created job set (teacher/nurse)
Bought a 60 year old house and haven' done a dang thing to it except fix the leaky roof ( why increase the taxes?)
Live and hunt
Hunt to live..it is utopia to us. Of course I had to learn what winter really meant...LOL!

[Montana Griz]

Originally Posted by Mt-7;18890198[I

>>>>>[/i]]Ok I am a transplant.
(7 stands and bows head)<<<<<<
I am in agreement with much of what is posted. We did visit in all seasons. However for some it gets into your skin and you just cannot let it go.
Hence we are here with our ill created job set (teacher/nurse)
Bought a 60 year old house and haven' done a dang thing to it except fix the leaky roof ( why increase the taxes?)
Live and hunt
Hunt to live..it is utopia to us. Of course I had to learn what winter really meant...LOL!

......Heck "7", I'm a transplant too, but I moved here (like you and many others) because I really liked what the area had to off; the slower pace; the friendly people; the lack of influence from those who had moved here without baggage etc,etc.

I did not secure employment locally (i.e. did not take a job that some local(native) person would have otherwise taken), I was employed by an out-of-state-headquartered company to travel the Rocky Mountain states, working with engineering companies and various mining, mineral and timber companies that had expansion and/or new construction projects on the books.

Thus, it was a "win/win" situation for both this area and me: i.e. I paid all the local (Montana) required taxes; bought all our living requirements and paid all the day to day living expenses here in this county. And this out of state company instructed me to purchase "the company car" locally, so that my moving/living here would benefit the local community in that respect.

On the other hand, I was paid on a scale based on the going wage for my position in the state of the headquarters company. Yes, It was a good deal.
But, with the good.......so comes the bad. For many, many years I traveled extensively...by plane and by car, thus was away from my wife and daughter for approx 75% of every month.....sometimes gone for two weeks at a stretch. But I realized years before I moved here, that if you want to make "good-money" (in this area of Montana), you have to work for an out of state company that wanted to acquire business here (and in other Rky Mt States) and this would mean travel, travel, travel. Everything in life is a trade-off!.

So, yes, I'm a transplant for sure from Colorado.....but when I was first exposed to this area of Montana almost 50 years ago......I knew this is where I wanted to end up working out of, living and retireing......because of "the way it was" & what it had to offer me in terms of "a way-of-life" for me and my family that answered our desires..............And lucky me-----it worked!

[Forummer]

Originally Posted by TwoBear

As I read about the many "moving to Montana" threads, it seems to me most folks have a perception of Montana that isn't quite right. It's been my experience that what ever things somebody is trying to escape, they simply end up bringing to Montana as baggage, where it gets worse. Montana is not some haven where the simple life can be lived, we still have traffic, no jobs worth a flip, and absurdly overpriced real estate in the western part of the state. The people here are very transient and not nearly is friendly as the midwestern states.

Nearly every trailhead in the western part of the state will have multiple cars parked every day of the week. The rivers are slammed with one raft after another. It is getting harder and harder to get away from people even in our most remote regions.

I personally believed that western Montana sold its soul beginning in the late 80's. Gone are many of the lazy ranches and rural areas in exchange for housing developments, roads, and big subdivisions. People were looking to cash in on rising real estate prices and an influx of out of state money. Real estate agents, developers, land speculators all got in on the game and gone forever are the pristine rural landscapes that were home to many wintering elk and deer. What we have now is low paying service sector jobs and virtually no industry. Local stores with unique flare are slowly being replaced with chain stores and those that remain have become tourist shops with chinese goods.

The local highways are slowly being replaced by new multiple lane expressways were you are more likely to see a subaru or suv then you are a stock truck hauling horses. The USFS is continuing the process of closing forest roads and limiting access to the national forest. This process concentrates traffic into the remaining forest roads.

We have made no effort in western Montana to build sustainable industry or jobs. Instead, we have tried to create and supply a utopia for out of state money interest via real estate. We have over priced housing, no decent jobs, and a western culture that has been pushed further and further into the past. Our natural resources have become a playing field for big environmetal groups and accessing these resources has become increasingly difficult. While I admit I still love Montana, I also know that I hate the direction we have gone. Montana is not the same, Montana certainly is not the utopia so many think it is.

Great post. I have to concur. You said basically everything I feel (and probably others, too), but if I may elaborate on some of my thoughts:

The job situation plain sucks. People moving here without a job lined up will be in dire straits. Western Montana is a treasure for outdoor enthusiasts, however, it seems like the only industry around is the real estate industry. Real estate here is WAY overpriced given the lack of jobs and industry in the region. Also, out-of-staters aren't the only ones who have changed the state--Canadians have done immense damage to the area in regards to real estate. They have come down and bought land for sky-high prices and have induced the local realtors into pricing everything in an overinflated manner. I can't get over how stupid real estate is priced around here...the jobs just don't equate. The truth of the matter is that they've priced property for Canadians and retirees or wealthy incomers because it sure isn't priced for the middle class and below. If you buy property in western Montana, you've likely been taken to the cleaners.

On the USFS: it always baffles me that the people who complain about the environmental movement don't realize that they as voters have a skin in the game and can voice their concerns/opinions at the voting booth. People elected those in office who manage the USFS to close off roads and such. You'd hope that there is a breaking point after a certain number of gates get closed off, but people continue to put up with it. Go figure.

[ElkHunter]

Originally Posted by Forummer

On the USFS: it always baffles me that the people who complain about the environmental movement don't realize that they as voters have a skin in the game and can voice their concerns/opinions at the voting booth. People elected those in office who manage the USFS to close off roads and such. You'd hope that there is a breaking point after a certain number of gates get closed off, but people continue to put up with it. Go figure.

Excellent point. What people don't realize is that it often only takes a handful of folks to close, or keep open roads and trails.

Last fall, down here where I live, it was announced that they were closing a trail to 4 wheelers and making it motorcycle only. Previously it was designated as side by side 4 wheeler, 4 wheeler, or motorcycle. Big announcement that it was being changed. A little bit of checking and it was a small group of people that had requested it. We circulated a petition and only got a little over 500 signatures and had plenty enough sig's to keep the trail open. Didn't take much, just took a few people getting involved.

[Reziac]

Seems to me what we need are more jobs only Montanans would want. More ranching, farming, mining, and logging, and all the processing and support industries like slaughterhouses, flour mills, refineries, and sawmills. Jobs that regular workin' folks can do but citified yuppies can't, so the "bringin' their baggage" types wouldn't find it attractive to move in and take those jobs away from locals.

AND it would give us back a hard product to sell -- everyone eats, everyone wipes their ass (paper products being a byproduct of the timber industry) and everyone uses stuff made from what we dig out of the ground. Meaning those jobs are forever, IF you have 'em, cuz the needs never go away.

You can't survive on a service economy -- it puts you at the mercy of other people's surplus income. When that dries up, you're screwed, with no fallback. Tourism is 100% a service industry, folks. It's a terrible way to make a living you can count on in good times and bad.

As to the screams of NIMBY and ALL THAT INDUSTRY WILL RUIN PRISTINE MONTANA -- Montana had all that industry for a hundred years, and somehow failed to ruin itself. How the hell are modern ecologically-cleaner methods supposed to create lasting damage that 1800s rip-and-strip methods failed to? (Or at least, Montana recovered its pristine nature handily once those methods got updated, and that's really the point.)