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Old 05-12-2009, 02:03 PM
 
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Did anyone see the "Wounded Knee" program they are showing on TV this week? I watched it last night and thought it was pretty good. I'd read about the Indian uprising they had in 1973 but there were a lot of details I was not aware of. The information they gave on AIM was interesting, as was the governments reaction to this Indian protest.

Montana is a state that has a lot of Native Americans and Native American culture but I don't really see too much of it in the Helena or Bozeman area, which is too bad. I don't like the "white man" bashing that has become popular when discussing the evolution of our races culturally, but I don't want to see the native American culture swept under the rug either. Indian reservations are a terrible display of modern Indians, hopefully it will get better.

Comments?
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Uprising in 1973??? are we in the right century??

I agree, bashing the white men to make Indians look good is just as bad as the reverse. Tho the reservations are, as you say, often not the epitome of Indian culture; often quite the contrary. In fact I'd hazard a statement that any artificial concentration of a given culture tends to bring its worst points into prominence.
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Uprising in 1973??? are we in the right century??
I know its hard to believe, but yes, 1973. The original event at Wounded Knee was a massacre, it took place in about 1890 I believe. In 1973 a large group of indians returned to Wounded Knee with guns, horses, mild explosives and a desire to make their last stand.
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Originally Posted by AQHA View Post
I know its hard to believe, but yes, 1973. The original event at Wounded Knee was a massacre, it took place in about 1890 I believe. In 1973 a large group of indians returned to Wounded Knee with guns, horses, mild explosives and a desire to make their last stand.
[goes off, looks it up] Seems with the original incident, both sides were at fault; with the 1973 incident, sounds like a case of Chief Chip-on-the-shoulder.

An interesting eyewitness account: http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/knee.htm
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:13 PM
 
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It's been a while since I've read about the original wounded knee incident but if I recall it was the 7th cavalry that was sent to disarm them (Them = Lakota Indians). You will recall the Lakota were the primary group that wiped out Custer and the 7th cavalry several years before this at the Battle of The Little Big Horn.
I don't think there's any doubt the newly rebuilt 7th cavalry were spoiling for a fight. The Lakota were likely wanting to flex there muscle a bit as well but there were women and children all around so who knows. One thing we do know is that the Indians got a sound whooping that day. Most modern history books refer to it as a massacre but many older books called it a battle that was decisively won by the 7th Calvary. Has "political correctness" changed it from a battle to a massacre, or have we finally just got it right? Who knows--

The second incident at Wounded Knee (1973) was about the Indians (many groups) voicing their anger over the way they were viewed in the movies, about a Indian agent they said was corrupt and about them wanting to make one last stand. This second incident has been largely lost in history partly because it was completely overshadowed by the Watergate Scandal.

Its all very interesting stuff, especially since most people don't even know about the 2nd wounded Knee incident and the gun battle that ensued.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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According to this firsthand account, some of the Indians at Wounded Knee were spoiling for a fight, and actually shot first:

Eyewitness to a Massacre
Philip Wells was a mixed-blood Sioux who served as an interpreter for the Army. He later recounted what he saw that Monday morning:

"I was interpreting for General Forsyth (Forsyth was actually a colonel) just before the battle of Wounded Knee, December 29, 1890. The captured Indians had been ordered to give up their arms, but Big Foot replied that his people had no arms. Forsyth said to me, 'Tell Big Foot he says the Indians have no arms, yet yesterday they were well armed when they surrendered. He is deceiving me. Tell him he need have no fear in giving up his arms, as I wish to treat him kindly.' Big Foot replied, 'They have no guns, except such as you have found.' Forsyth declared, 'You are lying to me in return for my kindness.'

During this time a medicine man, gaudily dressed and fantastically painted, executed the maneuvers of the ghost dance, raising and throwing dust into the air. He exclaimed 'Ha! Ha!' as he did so, meaning he was about to do something terrible, and said, 'I have lived long enough,' meaning he would fight until he died. Turning to the young warriors who were squatted together, he said 'Do not fear, but let your hearts be strong. Many soldiers are about us and have many bullets, but I am assured their bullets cannot penetrate us. The prairie is large, and their bullets will fly over the prairies and will not come toward us. If they do come toward us, they will float away like dust in the air.' I turned to Major Whitside and said, 'That man is making mischief,' and repeated what he had said. Whitside replied, 'Go direct to Colonel Forsyth and tell him about it,' which I did.

Forsyth and I went to the circle of warriors where he told me to tell the medicine man to sit down and keep quiet, but he paid no attention to the order. Forsyth repeated the order. Big Foot's brother-in-law answered, 'He will sit down when he gets around the circle.' When the medicine man came to the end of the circle, he squatted down. A cavalry sergeant exclaimed, 'There goes an Indian with a gun under his blanket!' Forsyth ordered him to take the gun from the Indian, which he did. Whitside then said to me, 'Tell the Indians it is necessary that they be searched one at a time.' The young warriors paid no attention to what I told them. I heard someone on my left exclaim, 'Look out! Look out!' I saw five or six young warriors cast off their blankets and pull guns out from under them and brandish them in the air. One of the warriors shot into the soldiers, who were ordered to fire into the Indians. I looked in the direction of the medicine man. He or some other medicine man approached to within three or four feet of me with a long cheese knife, ground to a sharp point and raised to stab me. He stabbed me during the melee and nearly cut off my nose. I held him off until I could swing my rifle to hit him, which I did. I shot and killed him in self-defense.

Troop 'K' was drawn up between the tents of the women and children and the main body of the Indians, who had been summoned to deliver their arms. The Indians began firing into 'Troop K' to gain the canyon of Wounded Knee creek. In doing so they exposed their women and children to their own fire. Captain Wallace was killed at this time while standing in front of his troops. A bullet, striking him in the forehead, plowed away the top of his head. I started to pull off my nose, which was hung by the skin, but Lieutenant Guy Preston shouted, 'My God Man! Don't do that! That can be saved.' He then led me away from the scene of the trouble."
In a tense situation like this one, once anyone starts shooting, everyone shoots until all of one side is dead -- it's just how we're wired as human beings.

Anyway, according to the eyewitness, who was himself part Indian, the Indians actually started it, first by lying, and next by shooting first (and who knows how many of their women and children were hit by their own "friendly fire"). Unfortunately this pattern seems to be more often the case than not, when you dig up unbiased accounts of various "massacres" (no matter who or what peoples are involved) -- some radical segment (perhaps righteously aggrieved, but sometimes not) among the "victims" frequently were in fact the instigators of the incident in question.
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
In a tense situation like this one, once anyone starts shooting, everyone shoots until all of one side is dead -- it's just how we're wired as human beings.

Anyway, according to the eyewitness, who was himself part Indian, the Indians actually started it, first by lying, and next by shooting first ...
Thats the way I learned it as a kid but history has a way of changing as social view evolve. As society begins to feel sorry for the indians they change, or adjust history to fit what they think must have really happened. One things for sure, the Indians were not rounded up and shot like some would like us to believe.
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Originally Posted by AQHA View Post
Thats the way I learned it as a kid but history has a way of changing as social view evolve. As society begins to feel sorry for the indians they change, or adjust history to fit what they think must have really happened. One things for sure, the Indians were not rounded up and shot like some would like us to believe.
Yeah... I've watched this change, from when I was a kid and history was still tolerably objective, toward today's politically correct "it must have happened THIS way, because OUR people would NEVER do what history claims we did, and besides we were the losers so you better feel sorry for us".

That may get the bleeding-heart wackos on your side, but it's the best way in the world to tick off and alienate everyone else.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Sioux Falls, SD area
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I think everyone here needs a history lesson. The location of Wounded Knee is on the Pine Ridge reservation in southern SOUTH DAKOTA. The original massacre at Wounded Knee was just that, a massacre and one of the worst instances in the history of the US army. Yes, the Battle of Little Bighorn was in Montana, just across the South Dakota border northwest of the black hills.

The 1973 uprising at Wounded Knee was the workings of AIM (American Indian Movement) a very radical group at that time led by Dennis Banks and Russell Means. All they really did was occupy a church located at the site. I have no idea what they thought they would gain from doing this. The FBI surrounded the area for months and I believe one FBI agent was killed (doing this from memory) and a couple guys holed up in the church were shot. There essentially isn't much of a town at the Wounded Knee site. Mostly just the cemetary and the church.

Following the incident, a trial was held at Custer SD where the indians rioted at the Custer courthouse. Many arrests were made and a trial for those arrested was moved to Sioux Falls. Prior to this trial's beginning during the interviewing of potential jurors, Russell Means threw a chair through the courtroom window, triggering yet ANOTHER riot in which all the indians surrounding the courhouse proceeded to bust out the windows on the 1st floor and most of the windows on the 2nd floor chasing courhouse employees in walk-in safes. Riot police finally took control.

This trial finally was held in a makeshift courtroom at the civil defense building.

The whole Wounded Knee thing in 1973 to me was a joke. The FBI overreacted to a bunch of clowns occupying basically nothing of consequence. They weren't actually holding a real town hostage. Basically, just a couple buildings. For a few years the indians occupied some ground by Sheridan Lake in the Black Hills claiming this was the start to their ownership of the hills. When the media eventually started ignoring them, they got bored and left.

Last edited by jmgg; 05-14-2009 at 08:51 AM..
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jmgg View Post
I think everyone here needs a history lesson. The location of Wounded Knee is on the Pine Ridge reservation in southern SOUTH DAKOTA.
Next time you look at a map you might notice SOUTH DAKOTA and Montana are pretty close to one another.

The Sioux Indians range this entire area so these issues are important to both states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgg View Post
The original massacre at Wounded Knee was just that, a massacre and one of the worst instances in the history of the US army.
The Indians lost roughly 150 people and the soldiers lost about 25 (I don't recall the exact numbers but these are pretty close). Was it a massacre or a one sided battle? I don't know, I was not there. Its also a mystery as to who fired the first shots. All we can do is study the statements of those who were there, read the official report, and make our own judgment. Ask ten different scholars and you will get ten different assessments of what took place; the truth is we don't know exactly what took place that day in 1890.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgg View Post
The 1973 uprising at Wounded Knee was the workings of AIM (American Indian Movement) a very radical group at that time led by Dennis Banks and Russell Means. All they really did was occupy a church located at the site. I have no idea what they thought they would gain from doing this.
The American Indian Movement did not just show up. They were asked to come and help by the locals who knew what they were about. The locals were not simply pawns of the AIM group-- not entirely anyway.

The goal of the locals was to remove a "corrupt" indian leader. They were not successful in doing this but they did accomplish a lot for the Indians across the nation, and they were well aware of this at the time. This event drew the attention of people from all around the world. There were media there from as far away as Asia. Had it not been for the Watergate Scandal it might have been even better. The view of our treatment of Indians was already in transition at this time in history but this event in 1973 hurried it along. This event in 1973 was messy, and ugly, and a little awkward but most of us who study the plight of the Indians will agree that it certainly helped.

There's a history lesson for you jmgg.
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