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Old 11-09-2009, 11:11 PM
 
433 posts, read 235,993 times
Reputation: 45

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Ya know, you really oughta get your tinfoil hat refitted; it's WAAAAY too tight.


Reziac, you seem very eager to call anyone disagreeing with you crazy. I am sure you will do the same to me but that"s ok. Perhaps you are to stuck in your view of the world to possibly see what is really happening

xenophobia [(zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-foh-bee-uh)]

An unreasonable fear, distrust, or hatred of strangers, foreigners, or anything perceived as foreign or different.


Xenophobia is a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself. It comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "stranger," "foreigner" and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear." The term is typically used to describe a fear or dislike of foreigners or of people significantly different from oneself
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,925 posts, read 13,860,020 times
Reputation: 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer222 View Post
You do realize that you are laughing about the destruction of our planet right? Chemical fertilizers and pesticides are polluting the earth and causing tons of people to become sick.

Also your honey comparison is laughable. Please just google high fructose corn syrup and honey and see what you get. Perhaps the honey you are speaking of is high fructose corn syrup because of the practices of bee farms force feeding HFCS to bees??
Look up the chemical definitions of "organic" and "inorganic". ALL food is organic by definition (ie. it contains carbon).

As to bees and honey, you need to look up the chemical composition of honey. Fruit sugar (nectar) is just fructose. The demonization or glorification of one source of fructose (and related sugars -- glucose and sucrose) over another is just ignorance.

Bees are kept more for crop pollination than for honey production; to support that many bees, especially if you're also harvesting their honey, you need to feed them. Any sugar will do, bees aren't all that fussy. --Tho I'd like to see someone 'force feed' a bee. If what you offer isn't a usable sugar, they'll just ignore it. (BTW I worked for a beekeeper for several years.)

"It's not what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you DO know that isn't so." -- L.M.Bujold

Point is, just because something has become a popular meme (or wacko dogma as the case may be) doesn't make it true. Likewise, the notion that we Citizens exist only to be taxpayers, while firmly established in government practice, is not at all what America was supposed to be about.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:44 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,925 posts, read 13,860,020 times
Reputation: 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer222 View Post
Reziac, you seem very eager to call anyone disagreeing with you crazy. I am sure you will do the same to me but that"s ok. Perhaps you are to stuck in your view of the world to possibly see what is really happening
Pot, kettle, hello??

Once upon a long time ago, I used to believe a lot of the same claptrap. So it's not like I don't know where it's coming from.
If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart.
If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.
-- Winston Churchill
.
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:45 AM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,594,456 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Look up the chemical definitions of "organic" and "inorganic". ALL food is organic by definition (ie. it contains carbon).

As to bees and honey, you need to look up the chemical composition of honey. Fruit sugar (nectar) is just fructose. The demonization or glorification of one source of fructose (and related sugars -- glucose and sucrose) over another is just ignorance.

Bees are kept more for crop pollination than for honey production; to support that many bees, especially if you're also harvesting their honey, you need to feed them. Any sugar will do, bees aren't all that fussy. --Tho I'd like to see someone 'force feed' a bee. If what you offer isn't a usable sugar, they'll just ignore it. (BTW I worked for a beekeeper for several years.)

"It's not what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you DO know that isn't so." -- L.M.Bujold

Point is, just because something has become a popular meme (or wacko dogma as the case may be) doesn't make it true. Likewise, the notion that we Citizens exist only to be taxpayers, while firmly established in government practice, is not at all what America was supposed to be about.

please do some legitimate research before spouting off. Medical research has showed the harm of HFCS.

Secondly when food is called organic it is not talking of whether it contains carbon. It speaks of production practices.

Last time i checked humans did not evolve on a diet Atrazine.

the us sprays 888 million lbs of pesticides on food each year.
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:47 AM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,594,456 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Pot, kettle, hello??

Once upon a long time ago, I used to believe a lot of the same claptrap. So it's not like I don't know where it's coming from.
If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart.
If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.
-- Winston Churchill
.


does conservative mean lie and throw out information and hope people believe it?
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Long Beach, CA
108 posts, read 250,313 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by organick View Post
I did not answer your question because you are comparing apples and oranges. It is very clear that non of you have done even a single bit of research on how single payer systems actually work. You just hear someone say it is socialized and thats the end. The govt does not have a 30% overhead as insurance companies do.


I suggest part of the real reason you don't like the idea is because you stated that you have an option to pay out of pocket. What about people who don't? What about the 144 dead people daily due to lack of coverage? Also do you really think you will be able to pay out of pocket when your bills become 1,000,000 dollars for cancer treatment?
Actually I wasn't trying to compare anything. I was just curious as to why someone would entrust something as valuable as their healthcare to people they claim not to trust, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I understand that it's "your guy" in there now, but remember that's not always going to be the case and anything that is run by the gov't is politically motivated and arbitrary. The politically connected are always taken care of. They see to that! Have you ever wondered why so many of these health care bills exempt the members of gov't?? The very people who are trying to foist this stuff on us exempt themselves! What does that tell you? Government is not about compassion, it's about force.

Now, as far as not being able to pay out of pocket, there are already existing federal programs for that (i.e. medicaid for the poor). Tack on SCHIP (which covers "children" up to age 25 I think) and I think we've got it covered. I cannot think of any reason why we need to disrupt the whole system. Call me cynical but I've been alive long enough to see what gov't does when it tries to micromanage. From my perspective, the results ain't pretty. Massive deficits along with waste, corruption, fraud and inefficiencies abound! Not exactly what I want for my health care.

You mention 144 people each day die from lack of coverage (can you cite your source please?) but even this bill's most ardent supporters claim it won't cover everyone. So, will 130 dead per day be more acceptable? I suppose that a cancer treatment bill could get to be million bucks but, again, what makes you think that if the gov't controls the system they'll just keep continuing to pay out? See, thats the thing about scarcity. At some point someone (a bureaucrat?) has to ration and in this case it will more than likely be due to age. Besides, the reason for buying insurance in the first place is for catastrophic coverage, not for checkups, or a tetanus shot, etc. Maybe if the gov't would reduce the amount of mandates and we were allowed to choose "a la carte" those prices would come down. My state piles on the mandates, why should I not be able to choose one from say, Utah or Kansas or whatever? It should be my choice! We need more choice, not more force!
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:14 AM
 
Location: West Yellowstone, MT
239 posts, read 648,849 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by organick View Post
The fact of the matter is health care is a right.
There you go again with your use of the word "fact". As long as there are two differing views of the topic it is not a "fact". An example of a "fact": we can all agree that water is wet. That is a "fact". Nobody will disagree with that. The earth is round. Up until proven, it was simply an idea. Once proven, it became a fact. It is universally accepted. Your "opinion" or "idea" that health is a right is is NOT a "fact"

It is amazing that you are the only one who has any knowledge of every topic discussed. If someone has a different opinion, you always come back with, "you have never done any research" or "you don't know what you ar talking about". GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!!!
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:39 PM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,594,456 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by yyz1 View Post
Actually I wasn't trying to compare anything. I was just curious as to why someone would entrust something as valuable as their healthcare to people they claim not to trust, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I understand that it's "your guy" in there now, but remember that's not always going to be the case and anything that is run by the gov't is politically motivated and arbitrary. The politically connected are always taken care of. They see to that! Have you ever wondered why so many of these health care bills exempt the members of gov't?? The very people who are trying to foist this stuff on us exempt themselves! What does that tell you? Government is not about compassion, it's about force.
First it's not "my guy" I did not even vote for Obama so that has nothing to do with it. Secondly my point to the whole issue is that the power has to be taken out of the hands of big business who are making money left and right by denying coverage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by yyz1 View Post
Now, as far as not being able to pay out of pocket, there are already existing federal programs for that (i.e. medicaid for the poor). Tack on SCHIP (which covers "children" up to age 25 I think) and I think we've got it covered. I cannot think of any reason why we need to disrupt the whole system. Call me cynical but I've been alive long enough to see what gov't does when it tries to micromanage. From my perspective, the results ain't pretty. Massive deficits along with waste, corruption, fraud and inefficiencies abound! Not exactly what I want for my health care.
But your current health care is full of exactly those things plus the fact that profit is the bottom line. Don't you see that if they provide you with care than they lose money, that goes against the idea of business and peoples health should not be treated as a business. Also do you realize how little money you have to make to qualify for medicaid? In montana its about 15,000 a year for the household. I am pretty sure households making 20k a year dont have extra cash to pay out of pocket for medical expenses. You know how much giving birth in a hospital costs if you don't have insurance? try 23,000 with no complications, a cesarean can cost upwards of 50,000. But there is no reason to disrupt a system that leaves 45 million americans uninsured




Quote:
Originally Posted by yyz1 View Post
You mention 144 people each day die from lack of coverage (can you cite your source please?) but even this bill's most ardent supporters claim it won't cover everyone. So, will 130 dead per day be more acceptable? I suppose that a cancer treatment bill could get to be million bucks but, again, what makes you think that if the gov't controls the system they'll just keep continuing to pay out? See, thats the thing about scarcity. At some point someone (a bureaucrat?) has to ration and in this case it will more than likely be due to age. Besides, the reason for buying insurance in the first place is for catastrophic coverage, not for checkups, or a tetanus shot, etc. Maybe if the gov't would reduce the amount of mandates and we were allowed to choose "a la carte" those prices would come down. My state piles on the mandates, why should I not be able to choose one from say, Utah or Kansas or whatever? It should be my choice! We need more choice, not more force!
I just read a new study by harvard funded by a research grant. It shows that 45,000 people a year are directly dying and if you take other factors into consideration the numbers reach into the hundreds of thousands. So even stck with the 45 that is 50 people everyday.

I never ever said I supported this bill. I don't I support a bill that covers everyone, universal coverage. A single payer plan does not set lifetime limits like your insurance does. I always hear people talk about death panels etc well what the hell is a lifetime limit?????

http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/HealthInsuranceMandates2008.pdf (broken link)

that is a link to a list of all the mandates that are in any state. I agree there may be a few totally ridiculous ones but 99% are things that should be covered. Perhaps they exist because insurance companies refused to pay for treatment??? do you want insurance that doesn't cover cancer drugs, autism,chemotherapy, diabetes drugs, your adopted chidren, newborns???? I mean come on whats the point.


More choice? like you have in other big business? All huge markets are dominated by a select few companies that don't allow for competition.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:51 PM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,594,456 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Doer View Post
There you go again with your use of the word "fact". As long as there are two differing views of the topic it is not a "fact". An example of a "fact": we can all agree that water is wet. That is a "fact". Nobody will disagree with that. The earth is round. Up until proven, it was simply an idea. Once proven, it became a fact. It is universally accepted. Your "opinion" or "idea" that health is a right is is NOT a "fact"

It is amazing that you are the only one who has any knowledge of every topic discussed. If someone has a different opinion, you always come back with, "you have never done any research" or "you don't know what you ar talking about". GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!!!

I am not the only one with knowledge, I do present research and information supporting my statements unlike many opinions thrown around on here. So what is health a privilege? Something not everyone deserves? What make one person more more entitled than any other to have health, please explain your ideas about that one. I can't wait to hear them. If possible kindly support your stance with more than your concept.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:40 PM
 
29 posts, read 107,945 times
Reputation: 44
Come on, just because I said Fox News (their official title) reporter women are babes and this is what happens? I'm a libertarian Conservative (Conservative Party member). Not Libertarian, but [l]ibertarian. Bob Barr did terrible in the 2008 election in Montana and Stan Jones and Mike Fellows don't really impress me either. We need true conservative politicians to take back Montana and kick out the neoliberal bums!

Anyways, Big Sky TEA Party is having a float in the Veterans Day Parade in East Helena tomorrow.
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